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Subject: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Posted by: guitacid
Date: 4/5/2014 5:13:37 PM


I suppose everyone got the newsletter the other day about Sony going to the NAB show and announcing Vegas Pro 13.

If anyone from the forum is going to the NAB show then head to the Sony stand and give them a right grilling over the future of Acid Pro. Is it or isn't it dead?

And if they say they have no plans for it then tell them to sell the product on to someone who will give it a new life.

Subject: RE: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Reply by: brothership
Date: 4/6/2014 12:22:08 AM

Hear, hear!

Subject: RE: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Reply by: VMP
Date: 4/6/2014 1:05:51 PM

Yes yes!! Atleast ask them to do a 64 bit update!! Otherwise give it back to Sonic Foundry!

Subject: RE: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Reply by: Kit
Date: 4/7/2014 7:49:30 AM

Yes, If anyone is going please ask Sony about Acid and don't take no comment for an answer!

Subject: RE: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Reply by: Vocalpoint
Date: 4/7/2014 11:44:10 AM

If anyone from the forum is going to the NAB show then head to the Sony stand and give them a right grilling over the future of Acid Pro. Is it or isn't it dead?

It's already a well established fact due to the extreme passage of time that Acid (Pro) is long gone. Sony doesn't have to disclose or pacify anyone and judging by the 5-7 long years now since AP7 was officially launched - I would not expect any info on anything.

Do I agree with it? No. Do they have to tell us anything? No. Would it be nice if they did? Sure.

Bottom line tho - (for me personally) - AP7 now a relic of a bygone era. I can easily replicate everything it does in Studio One now...so no need for an AP8 in my world.

YMMV. But don't stop breathing waiting for an AP8

VP

Message last edited on 4/7/2014 11:44:45 AM by Vocalpoint.
Subject: RE: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Reply by: 519tbarr
Date: 4/7/2014 12:18:07 PM

Agree will what VP said.
It's last update was February 2010 - Originally released in October of 2008.
SCS will probably continue to update AMS 10 and add features to it... but ACID as a platform is not being developed full time.

There are so many other DAW's out there being developed on a constant basis.
Studio One, Reaper, and Tracktion 5.

Personally Reaper is where it is at for me. I too bought and used AP7 for a number of years. As plugin capacity became an issue for me in AP7 I did my homework and tried a number of other platforms. The one closest to AP7 was Reaper hands down.
Some of the key commands are the same. However - word of caution - it requires a learning curve. Buy the tutorials at groove3 they are worth their weight in gold.
Once you get past the learning curve you will be amazed what the program allows you to do and how few glitches you will find in the software.

Subject: RE: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Reply by: guitacid
Date: 4/7/2014 5:35:22 PM


I hope my original post doesn't get lost in the static that's now being generated about other DAW programs. With respect it would be nice to know about Acid, not Raper and Studio Uno (again).
Cheers

Subject: RE: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Reply by: Kit
Date: 4/7/2014 7:10:36 PM

The point isn't about other DAWs it's about pushing Sony to say something and change their culture of silence.

Subject: RE: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Reply by: guitacid
Date: 4/7/2014 7:26:49 PM


"...The point isn't about other DAWs it's about pushing Sony to say something and change their culture of silence..."

Exactly.

Subject: RE: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Reply by: Geoff_Wood
Date: 4/7/2014 11:44:13 PM

Anybody played with Bitwig yet ?

Looks like maybe a quite bit of a learning-curve involved - ie not as intuitive as Acid, Vegas, etc.

geoff

Subject: RE: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Reply by: VMP
Date: 4/8/2014 8:23:30 AM


+ 1

The point isn't about other DAWs it's about pushing Sony to say something and change their culture of silence. [/I]

Or they should remove AP7 from their website!
Or bring out an update with 64 bit support or AP8.

VMP


Message last edited on 4/8/2014 8:24:25 AM by VMP.
Subject: RE: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Reply by: Vocalpoint
Date: 4/8/2014 9:53:26 AM

The point isn't about other DAWs it's about pushing Sony to say something and change their culture of silence.

Well - anytime you guys want to take on SMS and their "culture of silence" - you go right ahead.

But please stop with the "entitlement" thing - that was tired 3 years ago.

Bottom line - Sony can do whatever they want with their "products". If they choose to make something disappear - that's their call. But just because you and I bought a license sometime in the distant past - does not give us the right to push them for any information.

Do remember - you do not own the software or anything to do with it. You and I purchased nothing but the "right" to use that software for the time it was offered. There was no guarantees it would continue or be updated.

I know that it annoys the user base - but it is what is it. Use your AP7 and enjoy. That's about as good as it's ever going to get.

VP

Message last edited on 4/8/2014 9:55:29 AM by Vocalpoint.
Subject: RE: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Reply by: VMP
Date: 4/8/2014 5:21:04 PM

@ Vocalpoint."Use your AP7 and enjoy."

I wish I could, but can't without the 64 bit update!
Due to the memory limit.

VMP


Subject: RE: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Reply by: Geoff_Wood
Date: 4/8/2014 7:20:05 PM

You can use AP7, but not necessarily for all the things you might want to do.

geoff

Subject: RE: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Reply by: Vocalpoint
Date: 4/8/2014 8:32:56 PM

I wish I could, but can't without the 64 bit update! Due to the memory limit.

What memory limit? Works just fine here for most everything I ever throw at it - and that includes hungry VSTi's like Kontakt etc.

What exactly are you trying to do and why the word "limit"?

VP

Subject: RE: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Reply by: VMP
Date: 4/8/2014 9:28:50 PM

@ Vocalpoint

I have purchased Hollywood Strings and Similar Vst 2, 3 virtual instruments from East West. Loading more than two instruments simultaneously crashes AP7 due to its 2 gig memory limit. Because it is native 32 bit software not 64 bit, meaning it doesn't support the 16 gig ram what my system has.

Ableton Live 9, Sonar which all are 64 bit based has no problem with this. And loads the instruments fine.

It is really sad. By the time that I am learning those new software (what I am forced to) I could score using AP7.

VMP

Subject: RE: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Reply by: b.complex
Date: 4/9/2014 7:38:18 AM

VMP is right, I still don't understand why people try to "defend" ACID in this regard. Not being a 64 bit app imposes lots of limits on ACID when it comes to VSTi's. I too use KONTAKT and Superior Drummer or EZ Drummer and there are a couple of libraries that you need all of your system resources for, especially large string libraries or even very detailed libraries like the KONTAKT Rickenbacker bass or Superior Drummer "Evil Drums" - add a couple of WAVES plugins...you get the picture. ACID is not a stable host for those that want to maximize their system resources.

Subject: RE: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Reply by: Vocalpoint
Date: 4/9/2014 12:49:11 PM

I have purchased Hollywood Strings and Similar Vst 2, 3 virtual instruments from East West. Loading more than two instruments simultaneously crashes AP7 due to its 2 gig memory limit. Because it is native 32 bit software not 64 bit, meaning it doesn't support the 16 gig ram what my system has.

Look guys - I am not attempting to "defend" AP7 with respect to it's so called limitations. We are all keenly aware of it's 32bit executable and other trappings of it being a circa 2008 app.

But to say you "cannot use" AP7 because of "memory" (which really means your ability/skill to work with limited memory or use a workflow that does not require every available resource) is ludicrous.

If your idea of "scoring" is to have 11.5 GB of EastWest crap in memory at all times - of course AP7 is not suited to that. Matter of fact - I do not know of ANY host app (64 bit or otherwise) that would gracefully handle those EastWest hogs at the best of times.

The old saying goes - a poor craftsman blames his tools. If I am hearing you right (and only guessing about what you call "scoring") - have you actually been standing around from say 2001 - 2010 (when Windows 7 64 bit AND 64 bit hosts started to really solidify) and not "scored" anything - because true 64 bit tools were not available? How did you do it before 64 bit tools were available?

The fact that you chose to purchase a bunch of memory hungry VSTis - does not mean AP7 is suddenly "unusable". Furthermore - I think you would be shocked to see what some true "scoring" professionals use (and have used in the past) to score actual motion pictures and like - none of them needing anything close to a 16GB machine full of EastWest.

I use Spectrasonics, Kontakt, Superior and all the other usual suspects and have honed a workflow to ensure I can get the sounds I want WITHIN the limitation of AP7 on Windows 7 64 bit. If I have to print VSTi to audio to conserve resource - I do it. If I have to switch one library for another due to huge memory usage - it gets switched out. This is simply par for the course when choosing to use Acid. But never would I call AP7 "unusable". One needs to adapt to the situation and be flexible. If you cannot do that - you need to seriously revisit how you do things.

I would bet money if we sent Hans Zimmer to your house - using your rig and your copy of Acid - he would quickly make you realize what's possible - all done within the limitations imposed by AP7.

If AP7 cannot handle your "scoring" workflow - it's pretty simple - don't use it. But please - let's not start making assumptions that it's totally "unusable" based upon your purchase of some bloated sample libraries.

VP

Message last edited on 4/9/2014 5:57:57 PM by Vocalpoint.
Subject: RE: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Reply by: VMP
Date: 4/9/2014 9:33:48 PM

@Vocal point.

There is no need to bring up my skills or Hans Zimmer to the topic.

Facts:
Loading 2 gig + virtual instruments crashes AP7. Yes 2 gig not 11 or 16.
'Microsoft visual c++ error' is stated just before sometimes.
That doesn't happen in any of the other DAW's which I have tested which are 64 bit based.

2001 - 2010 I have been using an older OS and old VST instruments which doesn't need more than the 32 bit based resources.

A poor craftsman may blame his tools.
But a creative craftsman would say that tools must grow according to creative needs.
To get things done in the short and precious time that is available.

As you may have noticed we use computers now not chalkboards.
There is an evolution going on.
I am sure Hans Zimmer would agree.

And stating that EW instruments are 'crap' is your opinion not a fact - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce-_J41LaS0.

Once again Hans Zimmer would agree he uses the EW libraries too - http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul07/articles/pirates.htm
And he talks about the benefit of 64-bit computing (below).

And I bet he uses more than the laughable 2 gig of ram.

Reading your post, it seems you are spending much time on keeping AP7 running due to its limitations. And time = money.
So the upgrade to 64 bit would benefit your workflow as well. So why fight it?
Or not welcome the opportunity?


To stay on topic.

+ 1 b.complex .

I hope someone could talk to SCS @ NAB about AP7 and a 64 bit upgrade.
I am looking forward to an announcement from SCS regarding the future of AP7.


VMP


Message last edited on 4/9/2014 10:59:49 PM by VMP.
Subject: RE: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Reply by: Vocalpoint
Date: 4/9/2014 10:57:27 PM

Facts: Loading 2 gig + virtual instruments crashes AP7. Yes 2 gig not 11 or 16.
'Microsoft visual c++ error' is stated just before sometimes. That doesn't happen in any of the other DAW's which I have tested which are 64 bit based.


This occurs at your place - not mine. I have not experienced any crashes - ever with AP7. Even with a ton of VSTs going. Must be your software doing it.

2001 - 2010 I have been using an older OS and old VST instruments which doesn't need more than the 32 bit based resources.

So - use these with AP7 and leave it at that. No need to complain that AP7 is not 64 bit.

A poor craftsman may blame his tools. But a creative craftsman would say that tools must grow according to creative needs..

Look - I am all 64 bit here too. But I don't spend one second looking in the rear view mirror begging Sony to "get with it". Most of us (myself included) have gone well past Acid long ago. And those that do stick with it - know how to get the best out of it.

And I bet he uses more than the laughable 2 gig of ram.

Again - your opinion. I can still get a lot done within 2GB of RAM. Obviously you cannot.

Reading your post, it seems you are spending much time on keeping AP7 running due to its limitations. And time = money. So the upgrade to 64 would benefit your workflow as well. So why fight it?

I am not certainly not fighting anything here. I am a total realist and the better question is - why bother? Acid is dead. There is no point whatsoever to show up here and complain.

And for the record - which I have stated on many a post here - I do not even use ACID anymore. If/when I do pull it into service - I use it as a quick sketch pad and nothing more.

But your comments on it being "unusable" due to repeated attempts of using 2014 tech with a 2008 app make no sense and rubbed me the wrong way. I do not even understand why you feel the need to comment on a 6 year old app when you clearly have other apps that do the job just fine. If that's the case - what's your point?

I am looking forward to an announcement from SCS regarding the future of AP7.

Reality Check: 6 years have elapsed since anything related to Acid PRO was current. You will never get anything "official" from SCS on this - that much is clear.

However - a long time ago I pressed Peter (SONYPCH) for an answer to this question: Does ACID have a future?

His response was a single word - Yes.

What that "yes" meant (at the time) remains unknown. Could be that ACIDs future is the current cutback version that's out there. Could mean nothing.

Anyway - my take - ACID (as we knew it) is gone. There is no 64 bit version coming. Or anything else for that matter. If - by some miracle - something does appear - I would be shocked.

Best suggestion - focus on what you need to do creatively - with whatever tool does the job.

VP

Message last edited on 4/10/2014 10:45:53 AM by Vocalpoint.
Subject: RE: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Reply by: 519tbarr
Date: 4/10/2014 2:14:58 PM

I again agree with VP...
While I don't try to reason with his entire approach and yes it angers me as many others that SCS has silenced themselves on ACID Pro...
I say the same to those in the frustrated camp...
Find another DAW, find a platform that works in a 2014 world in 64x PC platform.
I did, VP did and I'm sure others have.
Are there some minor things I miss about ACID Pro - sure...
But I don't think about it the way I used to.
Move On... You can find peace on the other side!

Subject: RE: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Reply by: Terje
Date: 4/11/2014 6:06:50 AM

WMP >> I hope someone could talk to SCS @ NAB about AP7 and a 64 bit upgrade

I understand your frustration, it is always frustrating when a piece of software you enjoy using is not being maintained any more and the publisher, though still alive, is quiet about it.

We all have to face facts though. Acid is dead, it will not be ressurected. It has not had a release in almost six years and it has not had a maintenance update in four. This means that nobody has looked at the source for at least three years. The developers once on Acid are either terminated or put on other, more profitable projects. They'd have to be re-trained to do anything more on Acid, which is too expensive and therefore is not going to happen. As a software developer, I'd bet a lot of money that we'll never see another Acid release, and honestly the fact that SCS is still selling it is tantamount to fraud. It shouldn't really be legal to sell software that is no longer being maintained.

If you look over in the Vegas Pro forum you will also see a lot of frustration over the past few years. Silly features have been added half-assed and long-time bugs have not been fixed, and some times they are fixed in one release and then they come back in another. This is a strong indication of weak team management and release management in a software company. Seeing it from the outside, and knowing it from the inside of many a software companies, SCS on the Vegas Pro side, shows all the signs of a software company where all the best and brightest have long since gone on to better things, and the few that are left are scrambling to keep their heads above water.

If they can make money out of the "Studio" product line, and the new Mac software goes well, SCS might well do well going forward, but I doubt you'll see much of that going towards Acid or Vegas Pro development. If the "Studio" series and the Mac stuff doesn't do exceptionally well, SCS is a slowly sinking ship.

Conclusion either or: It's time to get your professional tools from someone else.

Subject: RE: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Reply by: SHTUNOT
Date: 4/13/2014 8:57:19 AM

Amazed that there are still these threads and arguments going on about acid...

Subject: RE: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Reply by: AnthonyTower
Date: 4/13/2014 4:26:15 PM

...which now would likely make ACID Pro..................the undead!

Subject: RE: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Reply by: guitacid
Date: 4/13/2014 6:50:37 PM


I just thought if someone happened to be going to the NAB show they could ask (or confront) Sony personnel with the hard questions. It seems no-one went to the show?

Meanwhile, if I was to invest in other software, which DAW does EXACTLY what Acid does in terms of reading tempo and pitch instantly? Thereby allowing the pain free auditioning of suitably tagged loops as the project plays? I don't know how it does it but AP has that ability to get you off and running on a new composition quickly and hopefully you're inspired enough to persist to the end.

I'm not a full time composer. I have a day job. I have kids. I don't have time to immerse myself deeply into the full spectrum of making music. I wish I did.

Subject: RE: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Reply by: kbruff
Date: 4/14/2014 11:29:32 AM

Basically we all agree that you can use AP7 in a limited manner to get work done. However the modern DAWS of current', continue to advance due to current support and complex customer expectations.

The reality is that ACID is great and works very well, but so do other DAWS that handle loop based midi and audio very well. The majority of these DAWS are pretty much sub $500.00 (full kitted).

Subject: RE: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Reply by: b.complex
Date: 4/15/2014 7:20:15 AM

guitacid:

Most DAW's handle loops well these days, and many have better MIDI implementation than ACID as well as things like support for REX files (if only ACID were 64 bit, supported REX, and had a few MIDI improvements, I'd be happy!) and wok in the 64 bit arena, and most are more stable hosts for professional VSTi's.

What none of them seem to really have is the ease an intuitive nature of ACID.

The question, as you said, is which one do you jump into? - and there is no easy answer for that. A lot of people like REAPER because it is so customizable and has such an active user base. I have a paid copy, and as of yet it never seems to thrill me. It seems more difficult in some regards than it should, considering all the positive hype around it.

My DAW of choice is now PreSonus Studio One. It is more complicated than ACID, sure, but they've gone out of their way to make just about everything "drag and drop" - and they run specials on it all the time that make it affordable to leap to their platform. I'm not saying it's "the best" or anything like that, I'm just saying I found it rather intuitive after I started working with it - even more so than REAPER or Sonar. I suggest watching some tutorials and demos online and then just downloading and installing trial versions of some software. REAPER is free to try, and the demo never expires really - and I think Studio One has a free demo too.

The truth is that ACID was always a pretty limited paradigm, and that's why we loved it - it was a construction kit type of approach that made music making easy, but as I said, it was limited. Once you start working with some of the advanced tools available in other packages, you realize the possibilities that are open to you that just weren't available in ACID.

Subject: RE: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Reply by: Frank Z
Date: 4/16/2014 12:59:17 AM

Well if they are going to kill off Acid Pro, then why don't they just go ahead and add the Pro features into Music Studio. Things like external controller, bus routing, track freeze, MIDI clock, etc. We're almost all there anyway?

Subject: RE: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Reply by: guitacid
Date: 4/16/2014 5:48:52 PM


Thanks b.complex. That was a cool round up.


Subject: RE: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Reply by: raskiefilm
Date: 5/24/2014 12:48:53 AM

@VMP: I suffer no crashes on AP7 using the VST instruments from EW. AP7 still gets the job done here for composing solid and full soundtracks.

Would I like to see a 64-bit version? Of course. Would I like to see some added features. Naturally. But at the moment, AP7 still gets the job done with the material and content I produce.

Subject: RE: Sony at NAB 2014 - tackle them on the future of AP
Reply by: THFC
Date: 5/30/2014 10:57:36 AM

My two cents...

I've been producing Audio for over 20 years. There is no other DAW I will use to compose other than ACID. I have had to use most, if not all, other DAWs on the market at some point or another but nothing beats the hands on that Sonic Foundry created.

OK, there is an issue with 64bit and memory usage but, this shouldn't be the reason to stop using something that many of you have been using for a long time, and for a very good reason too.

ACID Pro 7 will run fine on an XP Pentium 4 system with 3 Gig of RAM. Surely this should be your sequencing machine. 64bit and memory hungry third party applications should be run on a separate machine and synced to the ACID machine.

If you are willing to spend $500 on a new DAW, the system I mentioned above would cost a quarter of that cost and you still get to use your favourite DAW.

Use your current machine as a synth box and buy a second machine to run ACID. Simple : P

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