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Subject: Machine noise - Templates?
Posted by: Bax3
Date: 10/16/2013 4:53:57 PM

I have a lage file of a performance made on a Walensack tape recorder about 1990. There is consistant machine noise though the entire file. I cannot find/identiffy the noise in SLP2. Anyone delte with this sucessfully.
It would be really helpful. Thanks
Bax
(I used Sound Forge 11 Noise reduction 2, but after multiple passes I piced up artifacts - treble echo- that left thing unsatisfactory.)

Subject: RE: Machine noise - Templates?
Reply by: Doug_Marshall
Date: 10/16/2013 11:22:29 PM

If you can post a piece of the file we may be able to help you more. The obvious suggestions for finding the noise would be to play with the window size and window overlap and change the gamma and/or level multiplier. Bringing the level multiplier up is key to spotting low level noises a lot of the time. If you know the approximate frequency of the noise you can zoom in on that frequency range, too.

Subject: RE: Machine noise - Templates?
Reply by: Bax3
Date: 10/17/2013 3:03:50 AM

I did a capture of the file as a JPG, but I cannot figure out how to post an accessible link of to paste to this site. I put it on my MS Skydrive, but that will only let me send an email.
Any advise on how to display the file?

Subject: RE: Machine noise - Templates?
Reply by: Sneddy
Date: 10/19/2013 8:10:58 AM

Can you put a segment up on YouTube where we could download it and experiment. I have had very good luck with Waves WNS on things like this. As for SL having any positive impact on it, I'd be all ears!

Subject: RE: Machine noise - Templates?
Reply by: Bax3
Date: 10/21/2013 2:38:33 PM

here is a link to my SkyDrive.
The is a picture of the Spectra file and an audio slip.
Thanks so much!
https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=17F10E027AFE8B61!1711&authkey=!AHQr9u2ZwT5AIkw


Subject: RE: Machine noise - Templates?
Reply by: Sneddy
Date: 10/29/2013 6:02:13 PM

I took the voice section only and ran it through Waves WNS. It lessened the hum
however it sounded like the voice had been put through another noise reduction process (with it's reverby/phasey sound)? You can hear the WNS version here:
www.bobcroquet.com/noiseexample.htm

Subject: RE: Machine noise - Templates?
Reply by: Doug_Marshall
Date: 10/29/2013 7:23:18 PM

I took a shot at removing the hum using the extract/harmonics tool and here is the result:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3729273/Noise%20sample%20hum%20removed.wav

I used default extraction settings but with the window size set to 16384 and the window overlap to x16. The hum is clearly visible at these settings with a fundamental circa 60 Hz and harmonics to about 600 Hz.

Subject: RE: Machine noise - Templates?
Reply by: Sneddy
Date: 10/29/2013 8:04:49 PM

Doug - GREAT job! Is this with SL 1 or SL 2? Any chance you could do a
quick tutorial and upload to YT? Thanks for sharing.

Subject: RE: Machine noise - Templates?
Reply by: Doug_Marshall
Date: 10/29/2013 11:22:23 PM

YouTube? Eek! ;-)

I used SL 2, but experience tells me that SL 1 would do just as well on this file. The hum is visibly clear and consistent so clicking across it to extract it is easy.

Files with problems like this highlight the amazing capabilities SL has. it isn't the right app for every situation but, when it is, it's like a miracle.

I really, really recommend the training videos if you're having a hard time getting the workflow of the software. And be ready to watch them several times. For me, the training vids were money very well spent.

Subject: RE: Machine noise - Templates?
Reply by: Bax3
Date: 11/3/2013 10:38:02 AM

Thanks! Unfortunately, my trial version expired. I will have to try this on someone elses computer. I wish I could have seen what the file looked like after you removed the noise. I tried using the harmonics, but I did not have the same results.
How wide a selection did you use at the fundamental 60Hz -Did you use a very narrow selection? When I tried it I used about 50K and it took a great deal out of the music. What you got is what I was hoping the program could do.

The tutorials are a big help as you say, and I will watch them again. Hopefully, at some point they will add a transcript of the video Or perhaps even better, a step by step "outline" of using the tools.
Bax

Subject: RE: Machine noise - Templates?
Reply by: Doug_Marshall
Date: 11/3/2013 5:08:23 PM

Here are links to a couple of screen shots of the file which may show how I got the results.

This link is the original view of the file in SpectraLayers: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3729273/Noisy%20file%201.jpg

This link shows the extraction, still highlighted: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3729273/Noisy%20file%20post%20extraction.jpg

Things to note in the pictures: I turned up the brightness slider to make the hum more visible; I played around with "window size" and set it to 16384 to get the hum clearly defined (the "right" window size may vary depending on the file and the quality of the extraction can be affected by this and the other parameters); I noted by ear that the hum was not pure 60 Hz but had harmonics, so I used the Extract/Harmonics tool set to its defaults.

Subject: RE: Machine noise - Templates?
Reply by: Bax3
Date: 11/3/2013 8:08:37 PM

Thank you for the pictures. I never got anything that looked nearly as clear as your screen shots. I show a broad band that I guess should be centered around the 60.
I will experiment some tomorrow and see if I can get it to work. I have not bought the program because I simply have not been able to get it to work properly. I think this is in large measure because I have not been able to spend the time to really get to know it - In the two weeks they give us, I got maybe a couple of days. Oh, well. I am going to install the trial on a lap top and try again. I think I would like the program if I can get it to work. Too bad they don't have someone like you working for them!

Subject: RE: Machine noise - Templates?
Reply by: Doug_Marshall
Date: 11/4/2013 4:02:59 PM

Here are a couple of navigation tips to keep in mind as you experiment:

1. Ctrl+up/down arrow zooms in/out on the frequency axis.
2. Shift+up/down arrow moves your view up and down in small increments (it's a fine tuner on the elevator bar).
3. Mouse wheel zooms on the time axis centered on where you're pointing.
4. Pg up/Pg dn changes the resolution of your view (I used 16384).
5. Home moves the play cursor to the start of the file.

Finally, I've found that the lower the frequency you want to examine the higher window resolution you should likely use. This will significantly focus those broad fuzzy bands you may otherwise see.

Good luck with your experimenting!

Message last edited on 11/14/2013 12:31:15 AM by Doug_Marshall.
Subject: RE: Machine noise - Templates?
Reply by: Sneddy
Date: 11/4/2013 5:40:06 PM

Doug, if the development team for SL was savvy - they would RUN, not walk, to ask you to do a video showing that users can actually do something useful with this software. Your results were very impressive - Waves WNS couldn't get near your results (atleast WNS in my hands)! If you ever choose to do one showing step by step actions, this SL
license holder would be very grateful.

Subject: RE: Machine noise - Templates?
Reply by: Doug_Marshall
Date: 11/4/2013 9:00:21 PM

Hey, Sneddy,

You're way too kind. I'd actually enjoy doing a video but there's no chance before the end of the year. If you'll wait for me though, I'll keep it in mind!

I liked SL's possibilities enough to have fought through the learning curve - at least for the challenges I see in the files I work with daily. Along with Sound Forge I now use SL every day and am grateful for it - although - it *completely* needs better documentation and help files.

If you ever have a challenge you'd me to look at I'll be happy to try to help.

Best,
Doug

Subject: RE: Machine noise - Templates?
Reply by: Sneddy
Date: 11/5/2013 7:42:36 AM

Doug - thank you for your kind offer to help! Having easy to follow video tutorials is the key to helping users who are struggling. Thanks again, S

Subject: RE: Machine noise - Templates? TUTORIALS
Reply by: UKharrie
Date: 4/22/2014 11:07:21 AM

"...having easy to follow Tutorials..."

Yes, that key, - far too many are by people who "know" and stumble to put it over, YT is particularly bad for this, although you can try another . . . but this is time-consuming.
+I'm surprised Sony doesn't invite folks to prepare a TUT on newer software ( and maybe older stuff for the Newbee ), and then folks can Vote, having established what stage they are . . . since something aimed at Newbees should avoid being "Clever", rather it should achieve only "Good-Enough" so they can show off their Production and maybe wonder if they can improve, with some extra TUTs.

If folks are praised, then Sony might invite them to prepare New Software Tuts, so the 30-day Trials are given usage . . . . with a view to buy, naturally. When a Tut has been downloaded/Praised many times Sony might give the Author a payment, too.

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