Please weigh in your thoughts (buss vs. tracks - mix)

JoeD wrote on 11/13/2001, 5:14 PM

hey,

A while back on this msg board, a poster questioned whether, with Vegas, it was best to mix with separate busses vs. having all the fx\compression\etc on each separate track and going through one buss.
There's no ONE way to mix I know...but I was hoping to hear feedback with YOUR vegas mixing experiences based on the question.

I'll explain each setup.

By mixing using separate busses I mean:

- let's say we have 4 instruments - drums, bass, keyboard or gtr, horn or singer.
- each instrument would be routed through it's own buss. horn\singer = Buss A, gtr or keyboard = Buss B, bass = Buss C, drums = buss D.
- FX could be inserts or put in the chain for the appropriate buss as needed.
- NOW for each BUSS would have it's compression, EQ, etc..etc
- buss volumes left at 0.0

or do you like the other way...

- every track routed through 1 Buss (Buss A)
- for each track, you apply your own EQ, compressor, etc..ect.
- nothing or simply a final EQ or Compression on the buss
- buss volume left at 0.0

which one produces the best results for you guys with Vegas?

I've used both but find the first scenario to be a bit less work and doesn't require as many instances of plug-ins obviously.

I've read replies from SF techs here stating that when using scenario 1, the final output wouldn't be the same as what you're hearing when playing back the project.
I have yet to come across this.

Anyway, please weigh in on this simple poll with hows and whys.
Yes, I am probably bored :)

JoeD

Comments

theron3 wrote on 11/13/2001, 11:08 PM

Good question.
I'm about to mix and "master" a home recorded cd using all SF products and mainly Vegas.

I've been leaning towards the "a" senario(as this makes sence in my ignorant head) yet, without a master fader and no real way that I've come across to determine the overall floor and ceiling of the mix, I get confused as to the set up of busses. Should I sub route the entire mix to one buss for an overall level?

And yes, I've heard the chain of command in regards to buss levels and final output. It has made me very nervous going into this last stage of mixing and mastering.
Where to go? What to do?

Please keep in mind that I'm not versed in this at all but, I've been oh so pleased with the software and the potential to learn (with time spent and brain locked) so far.

Blahh Blahh,

theron

SHTUNOT wrote on 11/14/2001, 12:30 AM

The deal with "busses" or "groups" such as in cubase derives from the lack of cpu to deal with putting "high quality" effects on every individual track. Even todays cpu really cannot cope with the level of track count per song[18-25 tracks for me] to having an EQ+compressor+magneto+etc...per track to really fit it well in a mix. My time interning at studios has taught me that when it comes down to whatever processing[compressors,eqs,gates,reverbs,etc...]you can't ever have too much,or varied of a selection. It comes down too your usual track count in a song of yours or your clients. I've come accross at least 20 tracks with hip hop stuff,25 or so with rock...thats also because I try to keep them at that level so that I won't have too much stuff to deal with. When you start adding all this processing to each track,sooner than later you'll run out of cpu and then clicks and pops will appear with the occasional crash for good measure. I hope that there is a cpu meter in the next version of vegas audio because I wouldn't want to go there again. So thats where using busses comes into play,run out of cpu...Then group[buss] what you have to make up for the lack of headroom. If I had a guy doing 4 or more tracks with overdubbes[doubled parts and accented words] then he gets a buss,or any other vocal in the song. For drums I usually put the toms on one buss,kick on another,snare on another,cymbals[hh too]. Bass on its own buss. Experiment with stuff like this. Make sure that you also place certain tones and frequencies together[ie:don't put the HH and KICK on the same buss],because when you raise the highs on one you'll screw up your perfect kickdrum sound and vice versa. There really are so many ways to mix that you shouldn't take what I say as "written in stone". I've seen people talk about normalizing anything as a freaken joke, and would never be caught dead doing it. That being said...there are those you probably normalize individual tracks and even whole mixes as well. The one thing that I don't understand is why if you go the "a"route[each track with its own processes] that it won't be what you heard prior...? I would answer your post with the first step that you described. You can't go wrong with each track being totally controlled down to every finite detail..ie:protools type mixes. I've never heard of anyone having to group anything in protools, of course thats unless they didn't install enough farmcards for the job. Things are going to change drastically soon with the advent of dsp cards from universal audio[www.uaudio.com] and tc powercore. [www.tcworks.de]. One other suggestion would be to bring certain tracks to soundforge[kick,snare] and "print" the effect to the wave. Then you'll have alot less to worry about later...or even more if your not carefull!!!!!Later.

wilkee wrote on 11/14/2001, 1:16 AM

I tend to only use the other busses when I want to use a volume envelope say on a bit of echo during guitar solo's etc.With regards cpu power etc does this have any relevence when the track is finally rendered?
On the subject of FX I find the majority of commercial music now has way too much processing, its a case of "I have a Compressor and noise gate and echo etc etc, so I am going to use them" ( and bollox to the music )
Hey-Ho

stakeoutstudios wrote on 11/14/2001, 4:10 AM

I've found submixing through busses to be a lot quicker and easier. It means Stereo guitars can be EQ'd at the same time etc. However, until the Vegas 3 beta, there was no master buss... which means that summing all of the multiple busses does not add up to 0db, and will result in clipping. To get round this, you can lower the levels of the busses or render each buss separately, and then master them together in a new vegas project through one buss... but a lot of the time, you won't notice the clipping! this may sound odd, but to my ears, the clipping isn't that harsh... this may bring up the answer to that whole debate about Vegas having it's own sound!

Personally, I wish they'd do a temporary fix to Vegas 2 so that we can all experience the joy of a master buss!

Read my Vegas 3 Audio bug report on the main message board for more detail on how I mix.

VU-1 wrote on 11/14/2001, 11:56 AM

I am speaking from my experience in Acid Pro 3.0. I do not have Vegas Audio 2.0 yet but rather Vegas Audio LE which does not allow multiple bussing. However, my preference with Acid is to use the individual track inserts for compressing and/or EQing individual instruments or drum components and to use the busses to group like instruments together for mixing and any add'l special FX - like if I wanted to mix in a little flange or echo or something on the entire drum mix. Example: compress/EQ kick, snare, etc. at the track level then buss together with the rest of the drum components (buss A - for example) to create my drum mix. The same for bass amp/bass DI, guitars, BGVs, etc. Then, I would create all my FX busses and send to them from the track level. For instance, I usually use seperate reverbs for instruments & vocals. I would have a drum verb buss & a vocal verb buss each receiving its signal from individual tracks. As far as the master buss is concerned, ?. Acid has a master fader (no idea why Vegas doesn't - ALL mixing consoles do).
There IS a way around the limitations to Vegas - use Acid.
This is stupid to have to do - bit it works:
Once you have done all the editing you are going to do on each track, you could render each to its own .wav file (mute all other tracks & disable render loop region only) then insert each track into an Acid session. (You can even do non-destructive edits in Acid. You just can't do multi-track recording.) Then you can use the far more flexible routing capabilities of Acid to do your mixes. Shouldn't Vegas be just as powerful in this area?

This is pretty typical of a mix scenario on a large format mixing console with a patch bay using outboard gear.

Jeff Lowes
On-Track Recording