Has anyone impartially compared Vegas & FCP X?

Malcolm D wrote on 6/9/2012, 5:58 PM
Has anyone impartially compared Vegas & FCP X?

OK. I know FCP X does not have tape import/export and Vegas had features such as multi-format timelines long ago but being first does not make you currently the best.
It seems that the main objections to FCP X are lack of collaboration capability and backward compatibility as well as the above.

Please do not turn this into an anti-Apple rant.
It appears that the two now occupy a similar space in the NLE spectrum as they are both 64 bit, use GPU assist and not universally regarded as fully professional NLE's so I would be interested to hear of comparisons or experiences rather than prejudices.
Looking at the forums FCP X seems to have some happy users including pros.

Malcolm

Comments

TheHappyFriar wrote on 6/9/2012, 7:28 PM
I'd say the Windows vs OSX issue will pretty much bar direct comparison. If you have a Mac why buy a PC just for Vegas, if you have Windows, why buy a Mac just for FCP X? For the price point of both programs it seems like it wouldn't be worth investing in a whole new rig, unlike Adobe's suites, Avid, etc. where a new machine can easily be cheaper then the software.

However, Vegas has the advantage of running on a walmart special $500 PC where FCP X doesn't.
Malcolm D wrote on 6/9/2012, 8:06 PM
I and a few others here run Vegas on a Bootcamped Mac.
Mine is an 8 core Mac Pro with a Kona 3 card that works on both sides and in both FCP 7 and Vegas. (Not the system in my specs)
Others may have or have access to both Mac and PC.
I know Spot often uses a Bootcamped Mac for Vegas.
There are also several videos on the FCP X page of Apple showing it's features so I am guessing there are at least a few people qualified to make a hands on or an advertised features comparison.
I don't use Vegas at a level that would enable me to make a valid comparison myself.

Malcolm
mudsmith wrote on 6/10/2012, 5:58 PM
I do know that some veteran FCP users are very unhappy with the latest iterations of FCP, feeling that the pros have been abandoned......not sure what they mean by this, or what has happened with Version X that has created this uproar.

FCP had certainly, prior to this, started to become a defacto pro standard, replacing Avid in many situations, even for feature films, etc. I have worked as a producer on several different projects across a 6 or 7 year period where FCP was the main editing engine (being operated by someone other than myself), and was never that knocked out with it, but the editors I liked were quite loyal to it.......until these recent comments I got from a guy who had just put together his award winning feature film documentary using an earlier version of FCP.
rraud wrote on 6/11/2012, 9:46 AM
" I do know that "
'Some' is an understatement of the many, many disgruntled FCP users. So many so, that Avid and Adobe offered very attractive cross-grade packages. Don't know if SCS was on-board with the opportunity to pick-up some FCP refugees.
[r]Evolution wrote on 6/11/2012, 10:10 AM
It seems that the main objections to FCP X are lack of collaboration capability and backward compatibility...

The biggest gripe for me is the total disregard for the 'Way of Editing' and the new Nomenclature for everything. It's just not the the way it has been done in an NLE so it's weird for most classically trained editors. I'm sure if you take the time to acclimate your mind to it, you'd love it. It's just another tool to help you create video and it all depends on the way your mind works as to what tool better suites you.

Vegas was always a weird one as well with it's 'Edit on the Timeline' approach. Source/Monitor was just the way it was done.

Bottom line is: No one but us Tech Geeks care what you edit with so long as the final piece does its job of telling a story, selling a product, etc.
david-ruby wrote on 6/11/2012, 10:31 AM
Quite a few FCP X and Vegas users have migrated to PPcs6 from what I have seen on their forums. I believe that whatever makes you get work done is a true winner and we are no exception. We are now working hard and very productive using PPcs6. Companies need to step up and get the product working before trying to sell more 40% off products that won't even work on your current NLE. No sense there.
mudsmith wrote on 6/12/2012, 11:10 AM
I came to Vegas and video editing after many, many years working with pro audio gear and audio DAWs......since Vegas started out life as an audio program, I think this is why its "unique" way of editing video makes so much more sense to me, and why I find FCP ,and escpecially Avid, so confusing.

The first FCP project I produced was being editied by an experienced Avid user, however, and he was pissed and frustrated throughout.

Learning new software is something I think we all dread until it becomes second nature to us. None of us ever wants to change what we use because of this, so the syndrome applies across all packages and platforms.
ChipGallo wrote on 6/12/2012, 1:58 PM
Malcolm, I recently got an iMac and plan on learning FCPX. I have been editing with Vegas since 2002 or so. In the early days of Macs, I provided technical support for DOS and Apple systems, then focused on Windows computers entirely.

I'll write something about the differences. Initially I have been working with Telestream Wirecast on the Mac but I'll dig into FCPX soon.
Malcolm D wrote on 6/12/2012, 5:11 PM
'The biggest gripe for me is the total disregard for the 'Way of Editing' and the new Nomenclature for everything. It's just not the the way it has been done in an NLE so it's weird for most classically trained editors. I'm sure if you take the time to acclimate your mind to it, you'd love it.'

Thank you for the comment Evolution.
This was actually one of the reasons I thought FCP X and Vegas might be in the same space. Both seem to be despised by professionals for doing things differently and have similar price points and limitations.
I wondered whether FCP X might be what Vegas 11 is failing at being.
If you are going to break out of the traditional mold all options should be on the table.

It is difficult to assess a program from slick video presentations and I would like to try it on my Mac Pro. It has a 30 day trial so maybe I will give it a whirl. It can be installed alongside FCP 7.
I started with Vegas 6 but have earned more with FCP 7 since a client required me to use one of the big A's.

Most of the defections from FCP are professionals who don't want to change or for whom FCP X lacks some vital feature such as tape export.
There does seem to be some, however, who embrace the new editing paradigm and others, who probably come from the same user pool as Vegas users, who like it.
It seems to me that FCP X is probably now targeting the same type of user as Vegas and might be more of a threat to Vegas than the other A's.

ChipGallo I will be interested to hear your thoughts when you have tried it.

Malcolm
[r]Evolution wrote on 6/12/2012, 8:11 PM
Most of the defections from FCP are professionals who don't want to change or for whom FCP X lacks some vital feature such as tape export.

As a professional, I do NOT want my NLE doing anything unless I tell it to do so.
Magnetic Timeline + Trackless Editing = No Go for Me

FCP7 & FCPx are totally DIFFERENT.
iMovie & FCPx/iMovie Pro are very SIMILAR.
fausseplanete wrote on 6/14/2012, 4:54 AM
I haven't used FCPX yet, only watched tutorial vids etc., but

Main differences I've found between vegas and other NLEs including (as far as I can tell) FCPX are:

1. Dissolves: Vegas lets you slide vegas-events over each other to get a dissolve. Most other NLEs (including FCPX) require you to establish "handles" in advance, by setting in/out points on each original media. Fine for scene-based stuff like interviews and dramas but I find this a nuisance for more free-form stuff, not only on creating the handles in the first place but also subsequently adjusting the transition position etc. can get clunky. {EDIT: Like suppose you change your mind and go for a cut instead of a dissolve, you might then want a different in-point, maybe the real clip start}. I find vegas more intuitive and less clunky in this respect, and is one of the main checklist-item reasons I got vegas in the first place (years ago).

2. Bins etc: Vegas bins are rubbish. Most other NLEs have decent ones. FCPX has Keyword Collections (tagging) which is even better. Vegas has a "hidden secret" in the form of Media Manager which at face value looks like it has loads of potential and ought to have been promoted and developed in a way that would have established vegas years in the lead of Apple in this respect. Lost opportunity.

The workaround for bins is to use Windows file system / folders, which is actually a great workaround in some respects (why create a hierarchy of bins etc when one can do that in windows folders, that can be seen by other apps (e.g. iZotope) also, not just vegas?). The loss however is that there's no overall media/projects (and subclips come to that) management concept - the Windows folder structure based dependencies/workflow is not visible to vegas let alone managed by it. If only the Media Manager or equivalent could additionally manage the windows folder structure...

3. FXPX is said to be "database-based". So is Media Manager (Microsoft SQL Server Desktop Engine I think).

4. Tape capture I have always done via third party apps, I never needed any NLE to have this, in which circumstance such a feature is (from my point of view of course) irrelevant to comparison.

5. One of FCPX's greatest features is skimming, especially useful for free-form e.g. opportunistically constructing stories from random shots of live events. I want this! Premiere CS5.5 can be set up in a way that partially enables this, and CS6 has Prelude, except (as far as I can tell) it only works as a pre-process to editing, not as a permanent part of Premiere, so it's a bit like having a storyboard NLE-feature that become unavailable once you advance a project to full-timeline editing mode. I'm not aware of anything equivalent in vegas, usually I make separate "Assemblage" or "Palatte" projects (veg's) where I can browse what's there. What's missing from both Premiere and Vegas is any way to record and manage a workflow, in Premiere's case dependency relationships between Sequences and in Vegas's case between separate Projects (veg's). For vegas, this again sounds like a role for a beefed-up Media Manager, to record and manage at the higher-level (MetaProjects). Does anyone know how FCPX compares as regards Sequences etc. and dependency management? How does it cope when dependencies get say ten levels deep?

6. Great Markers in vegas are one of the main reasons I still use it, supported by scripting to promote from media to timeline level. Nice and clear, easy to read, no silly limit like 100 (in Premiere CS5.5) on number of markers, can ripple along when ripple-editing. Subsequent ability to copy/paste their times (via Edit Details window) into a spreadsheet (as needed for some of my clients). I doubt FCPX can do this but if so then please tell.

7. What about metadata? I mainly use a Sony EX3 and the only NLE I am aware of that allows camera-specific metadata into the NLE's media browser at least is Avid MC. AFAIK Sony Vegas doesn't have this ability. Does FCPX? None of the NLEs I've seen so far have proper handling of dynamic metadata, ideally it should be treated like further streams/channels of media, hence also groupable, ripple along with ripple edits etc. Preferably the metadata should be bunchable into collapsable tracks, and it should be possible to drive dynamic effects off it (just for further fun / creativity). Markers could then become just another kind of dynamic metadata, for example additional marker-metadata streams could be added by the NLE for arbitrary user-defined aspects like "Golden Moment - Definitely use this", or "Omit this" or "Boost the audio here" or "Get Fred to review this bit". OK that turned into quite a frustration/brain-dump, so to bring things back to reality, to what extent does FCP handle metadata?
Ros wrote on 6/14/2012, 2:27 PM
I have done quite extensive testing on FCPX.
I could go on for hours on this topic but I will briefly sum it up in no perticular order and will be missing out on many features, adding to this thread, here is what comes to my mind....

It's a great app which I prefer over FCP or Premiere CS6 mainly for the way you edit on the timeline but it does need many improvements while I like the fact that this app is not based on the old editing paradigm.

Magnetic timeline should have an on/off switch. Having it trackless is somewhat irrelevant and you do need track numbers on big projects. You cannot move events freely around like you do in Vegas.
There is no manual save and you cannot have incremental saves. You need to create events in order to access your footage, but then you need to free up some events because it uses your computer resources. FCPX sets your workflow.

In Vegas you are free, you set your own workflow. I never use the device explorer, all I do is drag my footage from my tagged folders to the timeline, you won't do that in FCPX. At any moment I can access any footage in seconds off my 8TB storage. I move things around freely on the timeline.

Compressor is unintuitive, while you can still get some compression handled inside FCPX, you might need to go to compressor as all this is handled inside Vegas, no external app.

Some more negative points:
Some fx you cannot keyframe and interpolation to keyframe is limited
Audio not as great as Vegas
BorisFX plugins not supported
I find it slow on renders compared to Vegas
Longer to edit with
Can only open one instance of FCPX
No mouse scrolling on timeline to zoom in/out

Some positive points would be:
Inexpensive
Many free great plug-ins
Standardized controls for plugins
Motion 5
Titling
OK for small projects

By far, I do prefer Vegas:
Fx on tracks, events or project
Markers, regions
Scripting
Open many intances of Vegas side by side
Audio
All is handled inside Vegas (compression, compositing)
Timeline interaction
Time saver, fast and fluid editor
Freedom
Vegas will easily handle 20 hours of footage on timeline

I do various work ranging from from corporate to documentary all under Vegas 10e,
Vegas 11 crashing unexpectedly, but FCPX also crashes, you might want to check out this site for further reading:

Top 80 Requests for Final Cut Pro X 10.0.6
http://fcpx.tv/top.html
robwood wrote on 6/14/2012, 2:54 PM
^ thx for the info RoS
Malcolm D wrote on 6/14/2012, 3:11 PM
Thank you very much RoS
This is exactly the kind of information and comparison I was after.
Even if I had downloaded the free trial I was not qualified to make such an assessment.
One tends to be swayed by the advertised advantages and slower to find the pitfalls.
It looks like I will stick to Vegas 8c, 10e and FCP 7 and don't need to learn new tricks.
This combo works well on my bootcamped Mac Pro.
Fortunately for me my cameras are HDV and EX1 both MPEG2 so I don't need to keep chasing the latest advances in NLE capabilities.

Thanks
Malcolm