Here are some outputs of what I've been able to make so far..

Test video file
http://stream.agcc.tv/test-cc.mxf
Test caption file
http://stream.agcc.tv/test-cc.mxf.scc

Test video file
http://stream.agcc.tv/test-cc.MP4
Test caption file
http://stream.agcc.tv/test-cc.MP4.scc

I tried importing just the mxf file into vegas at home without the scc file and noticed that the captions did not come along with the file. could someone confirm that for me?

Thanks Filmy. I checked out CPC's and got to talk to them. It looks like their HD Enterprise Encoder would do the trick.. but it's just under $5000. Any other encoder suggestions that won't put me in the poor house?

VASST has a product called Caption Assistant that may be of some help ($400 U.S.).
I have no idea if it works with MXF files but there's a 15 day trial so you can experiment with it and find out.

Mike

Thanks Mike,
Tried the trial but it doesn't seam to recognize Vegas Pro 11..

Caption Assistant will help you create captions, but it does not affect the embedding of the captions in your file. That is done by Vegas.

But Caption Assistant does work with Vegas 11. I am using it.

Dave T2

I have only done closed captioning in Vegas for SD broadcast, but had no problems. I had bookmarked this YouTube link about Vegas CC in HD media and it seems that delivery in Sony MXF is possible directly from Vegas, but with several potentials for error that aren't there in simple line 21 captioning. If you can get over the giraffe, the tut is actually very informative.



Larry

Thank you for the great tutorial Larry!
I'm going to render test files with all of these formats and see which the station can view the captions in. The video indicates that MXF files SHOULD embed captions already. Any suggestions on good ways to test these files myself to ensure that i'm actually embedding the captions?

The only way I felt certain my SD Closed Captioning was successful was to play out the uncompressed QT through the component outs of my AJA Kona card into a production monitor that supported CC. Not having worked with HD Closed Captions, it would seem if you can stream the format from a USB drive or other portable drive into an HDTV, you would at least know if the CC info was correctly embedded in your file. Without mimicking all the steps a broadcaster would use, it's hard to be certain if it's going to be received successfully at home. If you have the ability to play out through a BM or AJA card that can feed a true HD component signal to a monitor, I would feel even better with that test. Even if Vegas can see its own captions in the preview monitor, I would want a bit more proof of success before I submitted to a broadcaster.

I think one of the problems is that the embedded CEA-708 captioning (which was developed to be used for file embedded digital TV captions) is still not used by a lot of broadcasters. Many ( at least they were in early 2011) use the legacy CEA-608 line 21 information and transcode it to a digital format that is broadcast along with the DTV signal. I've always wondered how to be sure whether Vegas or any media player is displaying the CEA 708 or CEA 608 information. Errors in either one could result in your captions not being seen. I still see it as a black art, with NLEs and feel lucky I got it right with my project - a 60 minute PBS-aired documentary.

And looking over your earlier posts, I noticed an MP4 test beneath an MXF test... you are using an XDCAM HD template for rendering, and not just a vanilla Sony MXF, right? I believe only the XDCAM template will embed the CC info, and it may have to be 4:2:2 also. Not sure about that.

Edit: I just realized I wrote "Sony MXF" in my first message. Sorry if that misled you. Pretty sure that it has to be the XDCAM flavor.

Thanks for all your time and patience in trying to help us get on the air. I owe you for all your time so far. It's just frustrating when we are so close but just can't get past this one last hurdle when everyone says it /should/ work.
I created 4-1 minute files all in different flavors..

http://stream.agcc.tv/test/SonyMXF_HD_1440x1080-60i422.mxf
http://stream.agcc.tv/test/SonyMXF_HD_1440x1080-60i.mxf
http://stream.agcc.tv/test/Sony_MXF_HD422_60i_50Mbps.mxf
http://stream.agcc.tv/test/S1_E3_XDCAM_HQ_1920x1080_60i_35Mbps.MP4

as well as a test file that someone else created and i know had embedded captions,

http://stream.agcc.tv/test/tg30s_xd1080i_cbr_ccafd.MXF

I put the four MXF files in my time line without the scc files and after a moment vegas was able to see all the captions and display them on the time line.

http://stream.agcc.tv/test/timeline.jpg

so i know my files DO have some caption data on them and my files and the test file are both 608CC1

I then put the MXF files into "CaptionMakers" demo program to see if it could extract the captions.. first i tried the working test file

http://stream.agcc.tv/test/ccoutput_testfile.jpg

Then I tried MY files

http://stream.agcc.tv/test/ccoutput_myfile.jpg

emtpy..
argh.. I feel that I'm so close but something's not matching.

Does Vegas display the CaptionMaker test file any differently than the version you made in vegas? All info appears the same when you look at the caption data in Vegas (as far as 608 vs. 708 channels, etc.)?

Edit: I'm going to download a couple and play out through my AJA board tonight and see if a production monitor can read the captions. I'll let you know what I see.

If I promote the captions, and then click on edit the commands for both are
608CC1

The syntax is a bit different though.. for example the working one is
{RCL}{ENM}{R15In20Wh}{TabOff1}I think so.{EDM}{EOC}

And from my file
{RU3}{CR}{R15In00Wh}>> AS WE CONTINUE

Is there somewhere else to inspect the info?

The ENM code just clears the caption buffer and EDM and EOC are to Erase Displayed Memory and End Of Caption. So I think your caption info is OK. The next question would be if Caption Maker's demo version will read the info from XDCAM files. Didn't you say earlier the Enterprise Solution was the version that worked with XDCAM? Or maybe I read that on CPC's site.

I can see your captions fine in Vegas, but I have not been able to test yet through Kona, since Vegas will only output the CC info through HD-SDI, and my HD monitor is component or HDMI. All I get are the overlaid captions that Vegas is generating. I can confirm that my SD Sony production monitor will read rendered CC from 720X486 files following Vegas' workflow either from tape or through Kona's playout app.

Edit: I rendered your file to an uncompressed 720X486 and my production monitor reads the closed captioning info perfectly. Based on that, I have to think your CC info was encoded properly. It is possible that something is happening behind the scenes in Vegas, perhaps in the way it is generating the 708 info from the 608 data in HD files, but I think all your 608 channel 1 captions are working.

Edit 2: Spoke too soon. I was seeing the Vegas generated captions. For some reason the CC info in your file is not being translated into line 21 information, even when rendering to SD. I recreated a file myself just to make sure it wasn't something screwy in Vegas 11 and my CC info translated into line 21 captions when I rendered. I can see the line 21 dots in overscan on my monitor on my file , but not on yours. After I get done with my projects today I'll try to dig deeper.

Thanks for all your help Larry, As you can understand I'm quite puzzled and would love to figure out what i'm doing wrong. I purchased a support contract with Sony so i'll share with them our findings and see if they come up with some leads too. They are only open 9-5 cst which is when i'm at my actual paying job.. but i'll see what i can do remotely.

Edit: Do you think i could take a look at your sample file? I'd like to see something that was truely made in vegas and see how CaptionMaker responds to it. You could dropbox it to me? (dropbox.com) and share it with me (j-munoz@tamu.edu)

This TV station is going to be the end of me...
Now they are asking for a H.264 file. Isn't that just an AVC (mp4) file? I didn't think captions were embedable in this format.

@munozi,
Been out of town and haven't checked this thread for several days. I can share my file with you when I return, but it is SD, since I can only be certain of seeing SD captions on my Sony 20M2U monitor.
I have never tried Vegas with embedding CC to AVC (and don't know if it claims to be able to) but H.264 specs allow it to contain 608 and 708 information in the "user data" section of the file header, same as MPEGs. I believe there is a QT Pro plug in that allows for CC data via .scc to be embedded in a file, but I don't know if it's true 608/708 data or "subtitleing." You could also experiment with rendering to an uncompressed format with embedded CC and then encoding to AVC. 708 info will probably be lost but if the pixel size/aspect ratio doesn't change, it may maintain the 608 info (if the file is interlaced.) You're in territory I haven't explored in Vegas yet. Please let us know what you find as you progress and if I can come up with any bright ideas that might help when I get back to my studio, I'll post.

I was able to render a Sony-AVCHD file it created a .m2ts file.
I sent that back to the station and they didn't give me any confirmation that they were able even read the file. they just suggested I send them a mini-DV or DVCPro tape. I don't have any HD dvc pro decks and wasn't really wanting to drop around $20k to get one.

I also created some MainConcept MPEG-2 files (m2v and mt2) and both were able to show captions in my test program (Mac Caption)

-----

I'd really like to be able to do this with files instead of tape. My next email will be to the station engineers directly asking for a sample file of a file they have that DOES work.. then i could talk to the creators of those files and find out what THEY are doing and what i'm not.

Is the station broadcasting HD content without downconverting? They specifically said "mini-DV or DVCPro" and not "HDV or DVCProHD?" Could they perhaps be looking for SD versions? If so I know Vegas can do that fine.

We are providing mostly HD MPEG2 files, or .h264. Vegas will encode CC in MPEG2 HD files. Will the stations accept that?

Dave T2

I've gotten several different responses from the station.. And no straight answer if they are down-converting.. but they do have a 1080i hd signal that i can pick up at home. Here are some excerpts from emails I've gotten from them: Could you share which template you use to create your files with?


So far they have said:
>John, Just spoke with our engineering dept. and they are saying to sent it in this format H.264. Thanks!!

>Hey
John its Edward in production to answer your questions, engineering has
informed me that 708CC1 is best for HD keep the file formate of your video at
the same specs as you first sent to us the XDCAM MXF file formate
NO
we can not use the SCC/MCC files in the VR the only option is to have the Close
Caption In-bedded into the XDCAM as per the test files you sent our VR did not
accept them so please do not step away from the first formate you sent us or
change any options.
My advise to you is keep your video formate constant
and have your software vender figure a way to in-bed the close
caption hopefully I answered your questions

>John,
When sending HD video we need you to use XDCAM 50mb/sec. Also when
sending long format video use H.264 compression using high quality
setting. When working with embedded Closed Caption data internal to
FCP system use ProRes 422 codec.

Everyone thank you for all your help and assistance.. i just got this message from the tv station:

John,
We finally found one that actually showed the closed captioning and that our VR recognized it!! It was SonyMXF IMX50Wide.mxf . It is file number 11 on your list of files you send me on Friday. Yea!!!


I ended up having to send them one of every possible templates i could render and ask them to pick the one that worked.