Prores 10bit uncompressed workflow

Skratch wrote on 3/8/2012, 12:49 AM
I have yet to work with much full HD files in Vegas yet, but I just got my film transfer back on a hard drive. I got a 10bit uncompressed Prores file, 1080 23.97. I got the Prorez because it would have cost me a bit more to have it converted to another file at the post house. I downloaded the free version of Quicktime before I copied the file to my system. The Prores file played back real choppy in QT. Then I took it into the Vegas timeline and rendered it as an AVI 1080 23.97. It still played choppy in WMP, but not as bad. The final work will be in an MPEG format for Vimeo and Bluray. Is there a workflow i should be better following? Maybe an intermediary codec rendered from the Prores that i can edit from? There is also a tad bit of digital noise on a few of the shots, is that inherent of being uncompressed?

I'm using Vegas 10e, intel i5 650, Vista Ultamate, the Prores file is 137GB

Comments

farss wrote on 3/8/2012, 5:36 AM
I too found 10bit Prores a bit of a strain to playback. Moving it to a RAID 0 drive helped a bit but then I found another problem. At around the 60 minute mark Vegas repeated the audio from the beginning. Thankfully it was OK when I rendered it to MXF 4:2:2 8 . That codec will probably be OK if you don't plan to do any serious color grading. If you do maybe edit proxies for ease of playback and then switch to the original for grading.

Are you sure that is noise and not grain?

Bob.
John_Cline wrote on 3/8/2012, 3:46 PM
First of all, Prores is not "uncompressed", it is a compressed, lossy format.

Secondly, AVI is a container, not a video format, it can contain video encoded using a variety of codecs. What codec did you use to encode the video?

Lastly, the QuickTime player is about as slow as a snail moving across peanut butter.
Skratch wrote on 3/8/2012, 6:13 PM
My mistake... It is not a Prores, it's a uncompressed Quicktime 10bit 4:22 . I rendered the file as is, to a Video for Windows AVI HD 1080 24p YUV. I'll try rendering it as a MXF file and maybe it will play better
NickHope wrote on 3/8/2012, 10:22 PM
You mean Sony YUV?

You could try installing GoPro Cineform Studio from [url=http://software.gopro.com/PC/GoProCineFormStudioPC-1.1.2.100.zip] and render to that. It's near lossless, smaller than Sony YUV, and should play back more smoothly.
Skratch wrote on 3/10/2012, 10:37 AM
I tried processing it as a MFX file and it plays just fine now in the VLC player. That at least allows me to view the footage at normal speed, but the MFX file is compressed down to 4.6GB. I need to do some color grading, velocity envelopes, and general editing. The original MOV file plays back slow in the Vegas timeline so I can't edit from it. Would this Cineform codec be a good intermediary file that I can use to edit?
videoITguy wrote on 3/10/2012, 10:41 AM
Subject: RE: Film Transfer to HD
Reply by: videoITguy
Date: 2/27/2012 3:16:47 PM

Perhaps you did not take note of the comment that I left in your previous thread....

To Skratch:
From the voice of a lot of experience -if you do not have a lot of transfer to accomplish - follow "atom12...."'s advice above. His statement is what I have found works best. Stay out of the ProRes quandry if you want this process to go smoothly.
Uncompressed .avis are easy to work with and you go quickly to good intermediates for compressed storage - I use Cineform backed up on Blu-ray disc.
Message last edited on 2/27/2012 3:17:26 PM, by videoITguy.
Skratch wrote on 3/10/2012, 10:54 AM
I tried, but the post house charges $300 per hr. They would have to convert it to an AVI from the native capture, and I would be billed for that time.
videoITguy wrote on 3/10/2012, 1:30 PM
To Skratch:
It seems you have made this process a bit more complicated than it nees to be. There any many experts on this forum that have solid experience with movie film transfers. I can't speak for them - I would hope they would chime in on this thread of their own accord.

AS far as I am concerned - I deal with many "Hollywood" post houses everyday and the pro method for delivering good color -corrected dailies from film to digital format - come down to TWO (2) good delivery methods. ON HDV tape for direct capture to your NLE of choice OR another way as uncompressed .avi / or possibly .mov container animation codec on a hard-drive (can be customer supplied in some cases. )

The HDV tape as far as I can see is plenty of quality - the disadvantage being capture time on your system.

>.avi uncompressed handles best in Sony VegasPro. Delivery to intermediate [within] your NLE on cineform is best for composites.

Typical costs of $275 for a 400ft reel delivered to HDV tape..... hardrive supplied adds maybe another $125.00 above that.

Doug
Skratch wrote on 3/10/2012, 2:22 PM
The post house could not give me an AVI. Their machine puts out MOV and Prores. My other option was HDV tape but I chose direct to hard drive. The transfer looks amazing, so i don't have any regrets. The MFX file I rendered plays fine in the VLC player... The uncompressed AVI that i rendered played choppy in Windows Media Player, maybe the problem is in the media player?
videoITguy wrote on 3/10/2012, 2:37 PM
What the MXF container is... unfortunately..
I grant that an MXF file will natively play beautifully - it is an excellent but lossy production format. That is the problem with MXF - lets say I want to do some cuts on a frame by frame basis -as I would be able to do frame by frame in lossless .avi uncompressed or .mov animation codec - you have now worked yourself into two lossy steps from the film transfer -ProRes compression and MXF compression.

That is not a good course for production standards-- check out what these codecs actually are - you may see what is happening to your production flow.
Kevin R wrote on 3/16/2012, 5:16 PM
>"uncompressed Quicktime 10bit 4:22"

4:2:2 is also a compressed, lossy format, BTW. Much less so, however.
John_Cline wrote on 3/16/2012, 5:36 PM
"The uncompressed AVI that i rendered played choppy in Windows Media Player, maybe the problem is in the media player?"

It's not your player, it's your hard drive. Uncompressed HD video requires a playback rate of about 120 megabytes per second which is beyond the capability of a single hard drive.
larry-peter wrote on 3/16/2012, 7:48 PM
I don't think you mentioned if this was a paying gig or a personal project, but my two cents is - you have to put some sort of value on your time. It's almost always worth paying a bit more for the files your particular NLE likes. And Vegas loves 4:2:2 AVI. Your single drive is going to stutter in playback, but you can edit with proxies (Cineform may be a good option for you) and will at least have a quickly rendering, high quality original to use when you master. And if you're going to work with film transfers in the future, you'll be happier if you invest in a decent RAID0. The sub-$300 G-Raid I have will play a single stream of HD 4:2:2 AVI at 24p in Vegas.