+1

Communication is the key to success !

Ted

Larry, I agree 100 % .
Jøran

Yeah, I remember "Cool Hand Luke" too.
JJK

Let me respectfully disagree with the basic premise of this thread.

While I always prefer comity to discord, it is extremely difficult to motivate people to do difficult things without being direct and blunt, and without, at times, using a "stick" instead of a "carrot."

Talk to any winning athletic coach and see if he or she thinks they can get top results by simply whispering on the sidelines, "please try a little harder, but if you screw up, don't worry, we all still love you."

I am fully aware that there are actually people who read that sentence and don't see anything wrong with that approach, and sincerely think it would work, if someone would just try it.

I have never seen it work.

Everyone seems to agree that Apple has produced the most marvelous technical products in the history of the tech industry and that Steve Jobs deserves much of the credit. Well, folks, go read the recent Steve Jobs biography and see how much hand-holding and fun times people at Apple had working for Steve. Also, talk to those who worked for Gates or Ballmer at Microsoft.

As some of you know, I was involved in a lot of what went on in the computer industry in the 1980s, and the one constant among all the success stories was conflict, hard feelings, histrionics, blunt discussions, firings, power plays, etc.

I end this post with one of the great lines in all of movies from my favorite film of all time: The Third Man. It is delivered, perfectly, by Orson Wells:

"Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."

"Someone speaks, someone listens and acknowledgment is received."

OK, I'll play devil's advocate for a minute, but with the understanding that I totally agree with the "middle path" concept.

People who collect data, even from 'way before the internet, understand the importance of a "hands off" approach. They want the data to be as clean as possible. Studies I remember from Behavioral Psych demonstrated that there is no such thing as a neutral acknowledgment from the observer; it affects the sample data every time.

The way I believe Sony has chosen to view these forums is as a more or less pristine source of data serving their development efforts. There is no better example of this than the "boycott Vegas" thread that has been allowed to stand; how long would it have remained visible on any other proprietary forum you know of? At the other extreme, the "kittens and ice cream" mindset belongs in elementary school, not in business.

Of course, the clinical approach does not satisfy our inner cravings for instant gratification. We tend to get frustrated when we do not hear an immediate response, and I demonstrated that again just today in the latest EBU R128 thread. But it is even more frustrating when Sony says (and they have), "sure, we'll get right on that" and it is many months to years before they areable to implement the code fix, or simply abandon it, in the context of a very complicated piece of software.

There is one developer, Peter, who does respond more regularly on these forums, and I for one appreciate that, even if I don't always agree. But even he has promised fixes "in upcoming releases" that have never come about, even years later. "Overpromise and Underdeliver" has never been a durable business model, in any times or circumstances.

So Sony's "acknowledgment" of our input comes about in each successive release, even if it means (in some cases very) delayed gratification. Yes, we are stakeholders, but their challenges of meeting our wishes are quite a bit bigger than it appears on the surface.

Maybe a more mature movie quote than Cool Hand Luke (although I can't remember from where) is, "It's good to want things."

+1

I find SCS's lack of communication very peculiar in the modern, marketing-led, customer-driven world and I really think it's costing them. Any of these would be better than silence:

"We're working on it"
"It'll be fixed in the next version"
"It can't be fixed"
"It can be fixed but we don't have time at the moment"
"It can be fixed but we've decided not to for business reasons"

I don't think SCS's handling of both this forum and their increasingly sluggish tech support is something you want to defend. Nick is correct that, in this day and age, lack of communication -- especially with your most "avid" users (those who take the time to read and contribute to a forum) -- is not the way to go.

Just to bring up Apple one more time, have any of you been in an Apple store the past year or so? Tell me, did you come away thinking that they don't care, or that they don't know what they are talking about, or that Apple as a company stinks??

No, you come away thinking exactly the opposite.

Ultimately, you have to have someone, somewhere up the chain of command who cares. I mean REALLY cares.

About what?

About the product;
About the quality;
About the features;
About the customers;
About the industry;
About the competition.

I can understand why some people -- including, perhaps, some at SCS -- don't want to "owe my soul to the company store," to quote that great line made famous when Tennessee Ernie Ford sang Sixteen Tons, but when that desire to not get "owned" by the company creates an uncaring attitude that permeates the organization, I don't see how that helps anyone.

johnmeyer,

Thanks for weighing in. I always respect your comments and you may be right. My hopes are that some clear head will be willing to try something different. I may be naive, but just like the feel-good movies we see where a politician decides to start speaking the Truth, if open communication would be attempted I think it could be turned into a marketing coup for Sony as well as providing relief for some of our forum brothers.

One can only hope. The present situation I see as a downward spiral both for marketing and for support from users.

Larry

OK, case in point. Right now we are having a high level discussion, and one that will presumably be allowed to stand and continue (assuming we all remain civil about it). There are no two people participating in this thread whose opinions I respect more than John and Nick, although I chose to share another perspective (is the ball red or is it blue?).

Can you imagine what a mess we'd have right now if Sony jumped in and imposed their corporate POV on this thread? Then we'd see some fireworks!

After all, it's their forum, and even though they state that quite clearly, it's a rare occurrence for them to interject if other than for factual or informational purposes, and I may actually view that as being the lesser of two evils (although I haven't quite decided) ;?)

.

John, very good points. And i respect your opinion fully.

But.. as an example of why I am totally +1 on this is, I learned an important lesson about communication with clients quite some years ago.

I once worked in a retail shop and we had had some problems with goods arriving late for customers to collect. A simple problem, but our orders were falling back.
One day a customer came crashing into the shop, shaking fists and shouting words to the effect 'were are my goods?' ... ehem, well not that polite.
No one had contacted him via telephone to simply point out his delivery was late and why. This caused the upset and it promptly turned to anger. My boss at the time told me 'keep the customer informed, even if its bad news'... mostly they will understand and give you time to put it right. Great advice and i have lived with that attitude ever since. Even caliing the accounts department and telling them why their payment will be late - it works. They mostly go away feeling cared about and understand there is a problem and its getting resolved. The worst possible attitude is, dont bother letting them know whats going on. And thats where SCS seem to be heading.
So please, SCS, good fellows, keep us informed.

Paul.

Paul, no "but" needed in your reply. I agree with everything you said.

My apologies John if i misinterpreted your post.

Paul.

I know that when I am trouble shooting a problem for a client, the last thing I want is either insults or flattery. What helps me most is accurate descriptions of specific problems and descriptions of the actions that seem to make these problems worse.

I don't believes Sony wants a lot of trash talking that might discourage potential buyers from purchasing this software.

For what it's worth, I love Sony software, especially Vegas. I get frustrated that every time there is a new release, it takes three or four revision before it is stable, but in spite of that, I just love this software and really don't want to use any of the competing products (which also have their share of problems).

+1 Laurence. I couldn't have said it better myself. Despite all the problems, Sony Vegas still remains one of my favorite programs in ANY category. Give me Vegas, Cakewalk Sonar and Photoshop and I'd have my "desert island" software.

SCS just recently communicated in the update thread by providing the latest updates.

Not only did they talk, they walked!

That is the BEST communications I can think of and proof positive that they ARE listening and working to solve the issues!

Announcing that an update is available is not the level of communication needed.
And i could think of a dozen ways this could be improved. Its not hard to think how.
No reciept of reply from issues posted to the SCS customer support ticket system regardless of pleas to respond. Im done with this nonsense. Read my little story - this is all going to fail badly if we are ignored.

+1 as stated at the very start.

Paul.

"Announcing that an update is available is not the level of communication needed."

They included the update not just announced it. That is their way of responding to the support tickets system. It is an action way to communicate.

At least they are communicationg actions not just empty words of we will get around to it.

Words of promises belong to polititians, communications of actions belong to SCS!

Actions are REAL communications!

"Actions are REAL communications!"...

so fix my damned issue and stop faffing about by not telling us whether its even being looked at or not - rubbish!!!!!!!!!!

Angry. get real.

Paul.

VidMus,

I agree that updates are the ultimate communication we all want, but when some current problems aren't even acknowledged in "known issues" it still leaves us wondering if we're being fully heard.

Here's my last pie-in-the-sky dream: Several years ago when the SD/HD transition in the broadcast world was in the early stages, one top NLE company provided users with a roadmap for where the software was headed. Full HD implementation was two versions away. They stated their intention (and were clear that they weren't promising) what they would try to address in each sub-version leading up to that point. Some occurred as planned, some didn't.

Would it change users opinions of SCS if something like this were emailed to registered users? I think the change in attitudes would be astounding.

"... but when some current problems aren't even acknowledged in "known issues" it still leaves us wondering if we're being fully heard."

Some current problems are NOT Vegas problems and cannot be acknowledged by SCS. SCS can ONLY acknowledge problems that are caused by Vegas not user problems.

SCS can only fix Vegas problems not user problems.

The problem here is that too many users are refusing to acknowledge THEIR problems and want to put ALL of the blame on SCS and Vegas!

The problems will never be solved that way.

VisMus,

Again, I agree with most everything you're saying. Users are the cause of some issues. But in my release notes for build 521, I read, "Stabilization has been simplified and improved." No mention of problems in "known issues." If it's working correctly on SCS's test machines, I beg them to let us know what they're using.

Ask yourself, is this helpful to sorting out the issues we are having with v11?
Take my issue - it IS repeatable in other peoples machine. Are you really suggesting they are ALL faulty? Please take a good look at your policy of 'blame the users' very hard and walk away.

Paul.