choppy playback in VMS 10 HD Platinum

MSmart wrote on 4/19/2011, 12:15 AM

Have you tried searching the forum? There's quite a number of threads on this topic.

ohmayamusic wrote on 4/19/2011, 4:04 AM

Maybe I didnt use good search terms because I didnt see anything that addressed my specific need. What should I be searching under?.

Birk Binnard wrote on 4/19/2011, 9:32 AM

There is nothing wrong with your GH1 or your copy of Vegas (I know because I have both.) The problem, as has been well documented here for a long time now, is with Vegas 10's ability (or lack of it) to play back AVCHD video in the Preview window. Basically, it does a poor job of this. So your best bet is to fuss with the quality settings in the Playback window and see which ones suit you best.

This problem began with VMS10; VMS9 did a much better job of displaying AVCHD video. Several people have said they went back to VMS9 because of this. And before you ask, no, Sony appears to not want to fix this via an update to VMS10. The general feeling (because there is no formal announcement of anything) is that we will have to wait for VMS11 for a fix - if there is one.

Also, you should stick with AVCHD format because it does produce much higher quality video, even thought the files are smaller. If you are really serious about making video with your GH1 check out the GH series of postings at DVXUser.com.

Eugenia wrote on 4/19/2011, 10:50 AM

The answer above is wrong. Vegas Platinum 10 **is** much faster for AVCHD than Vegas 9 was. Platinum 10 and Pro 10 have a brand new decoder optimized for AVCHD and dSLR footage in particular. Pro 10's decoder is even faster than Platinum 10's only because it's 8 months younger/more-mature. But it's the same new decoder.

So, please read the "Optimize Vegas for speedy video preview" here
http://eugenia.queru.com/2008/12/19/sony-vegas-hints-and-tips/

If that doesn't help, maybe there's something wrong with your machine, maybe some process is eating up all the CPU. Make sure you open the Task Manager, go to processes, and sort by CPU. Kill any application (not system process) that might be eating the CPU. I've seen Vegas Platinum 10 not exiting properly many times, so it might be a previous iteration of Vegas still running the problem.

Markk655 wrote on 4/19/2011, 11:23 AM

How up to date Is your cpu? Is that a P4 (3.2 GHz??) or a true dual core?

drguitar0001 wrote on 4/19/2011, 12:54 PM

Actually both Eugenia and Birk are right and wrong. VMS 10 was designed to run AVCHD video better than VMS 9, but VMS 10 is full of bugs that keep it from running properly. And although Vegas Pro does work properly, it has been updated 5 (?) times since it's release while VMS 10 has not been updated even once in the past year since it's release.

I was told by Eric in Sony Support that VMS 11 will have the fixes that will correct the problems in VMS 10.

Eugenia wrote on 4/19/2011, 1:08 PM

VMS10 has bugs, but not THAT kind of bug. It mostly has crashing bugs, but h.264 decoding IS faster in it than it was on VMS9. So what the user is seeing is not normal, and I hope he follows the URL I gave him to configure/fix his issue.

drguitar0001 wrote on 4/19/2011, 1:31 PM

Actually Eugenia, VMS 10 does have bugs in it's H.264 decoding/processing. Some H.264 files will not even play properly in VMS 10 no matter how you have the program configured. The bug I speak of has been a known issue to Sony tech. since the end of May 2010. It should be fixed with VMS 11 (I have my fingers crossed).

Eugenia wrote on 4/19/2011, 1:55 PM

I downloaded a 720p file from the GH1, and there are no decoding bugs. Vegas does process it as fast as it can, and without glitches. The problem is that 720p on the GH1 using AVC is 60p, not 30p. This means 60 progressive frames, which are DIFFICULT to decode.

So, the user must follow the instructions I gave him on the URL above, and to make sure no other processes eat out the CPU. If his PC still can't process that, then he needs either a faster PC, or a move to a video editor that uses hardware acceleration for h.264, like Adobe's CS5 (with the right graphics card, the nvidia 8800GT is not supported for CUDA by CS5). Alternatively, the user can also install the TRIAL version of Vegas Pro 10.0d, to see if it makes things any better. I find Vegas Pro to be about 30% faster than Platinum for h.264 decoding, but that amount might still not be enough for full 60p decoding on his PC. Otherwise, don't record in 60p. Either use 1080/30p, or 720/30p or 24p that will make decoding easier.

ohmayamusic wrote on 4/21/2011, 1:58 PM

Im not ignoring you all - I just came back to read the replies and am traveling. I want to get into this discussion so please bear with me - will come back later and reply - thank you all for your input and I hope I can resolve the issue.

ohmayamusic wrote on 4/21/2011, 2:10 PM

@ Eugenia...
I iwll read your tutorial. My system is a very robust Dell XPS 630 with a true dual core 3.8 and 6GB RAM and an NVIDIA 8800 GT GeForce video card. I was assured by the techs at Dell that my machine is designed for video and gaming. I bought it for that reason. I called NVIDIA to make sure there was no issue with the card and the drivers are the latest ones. I will check the running programs but the last time I check I had a commit on under 1GB RAM being used with 5 GB available and only around 17% of the CPU active.

I cant believe this...I paid to upgrade from 9 to 10 because they advertised it was made for playing AVCHD, now I see it;s not really and the bugs will be fixed in version 11 and I have to pay more? holy cow...My camera is an amazing one and I have yet to be able to take advantage of its capabilites because I cant wirk with the mts files...geez...even the motion JPEG is choppy if I add more than one video FX to the track!

ohmayamusic wrote on 4/21/2011, 2:18 PM

OK - You have given me a lot to go on as always, E! xoxo

The owner's guide for the GH-1 says that with the AVCHD mode selected, the FHD setting 1920 X 1080, which is what I was using, records at 60i (sensor output is 24fps). All of the other settings in AVCHD at 1280 X 720 - SH, H and L - say they record at 60p (Sensor output is 60 fps)

In motion JPEG mode, the HD setting -1280X720 - records at 30fps. I am a bit lost here - is the 1080i AVCHD output really 60 or 24 fps?

I am a still photographer. This is driving me batty!!! :)

Thanks again, E!
Flo

Eugenia wrote on 4/21/2011, 2:23 PM

>the bugs will be fixed in version 11

Your case has nothing to do with the bugs (except the app not closing properly, which has an easy fix by killing its process). Platinum 10 *is* faster than 9 for the type of video you use. So, follow the URL I gave you, make sure you only run one instance of the app, and you will get a performance that Platinum 10 was supposed to give you. If it's still slow, then as I said above, do NOT record in 60p. 60p is way too difficult to decode. Use 1080/24p instead.

BTW, if your GH1 records 1080/24p in PF24 and not in true 24p, you'll need to remove pulldown. This is done by Cineform NeoSCENE, which costs $130. Most of us with cameras that shot in PF24 instead of 24p, had to purchase it.

>even the motion JPEG is choppy if I add more than one video FX to the track!

This is absolutely normal. The real-time preview is only available in preview/auto previewing mode, and with no effects. Again, read the URL I gave you above.

ohmayamusic wrote on 4/21/2011, 2:24 PM

Dumb question...isn't AVCHD SONY's native format and if so shouldn't it work in their software?

Eugenia wrote on 4/21/2011, 5:20 PM

Ah, jeez.

IT IS working.

It's just not working fast-enough because 60p is too difficult to decode. You should only say "it doesn't work" if you could not see anything in the preview screen. But apparently you DO see the video playing, it's just slow to decode. As I explained 4 times already, do not shoot in 720/60p, shoot in a lower frame rate. Platinum 10 works as intended. It's not faster than that. Vegas Pro 10 is a bit faster, but still, don't expect miracles from it either without any hardware acceleration.

As long as you killed any stray processes, what speed you got is all you are going to get. It's already many times faster than Platinum 9.

ohmayamusic wrote on 4/21/2011, 6:51 PM

Eugenia,
I know you are near god-like status on this board in terms of your knowledge and I truly admire the amount of information you are able to share, but it always seems to come with the price of having to be subject to your disdain for me being so dumb. I stopped posting to this board a year ago after the last time you raked me over the coals and thought I might try again, but your "ah jeez" and "as I explained 4 times already" shows that you are still fond of impatiently taking swipes at those who know less than you when they dont get it as quickly as you think they should. What may be obvious to you is still a mystery to a lot of us and I dont come here to spar with you. I only wanted to try to understand why my AVCHD playback is choppy and hopefully get it fixed.

A lot of what you say goes over my head and I am afraid to even ask for clarification for fear of being subject to your roll of the eyes. I dont even know the difference between shooting at 24p and 24PF or whatever you said or even what pulldown is. I am trying my best to learn and it doesn't help me at all to be afraid to ask a "dumb" question - to me there's no such thing! I thought that's what the forums were for - not for the smart one to make the new user feel dumb.

The true master is gentle. The true master is kind, generous and patient with those he teaches and never uses knowledge as power. I thank you for sharing your knowledge but would respectfully ask that you not demean or ridicule me when I dont get it as quickly as you would like. If this is a problem, then perhaps you could recuse yourself from contributing any more to this post or any other posts I make?

There are a lot of other knowledgable people in these forums who are really kind that can also provide help if you cant do so in a kind way. I think we all lose if youre not here to contribute, but please limit the comments to the information needed to solve the problem and save the other stuff for somewhere else.
Thanks!

Eugenia wrote on 4/21/2011, 7:05 PM

It would be nice if you stop playing the victim. Four paragraphs about it, no less. You already showed that you're not as dumb as you would like us to think: you have a power user's gaming machine, you even know how to kill processes. Most people don't know that. And nothing I wrote is that high-end that it could go "over your head". Not for someone who even knows how to convert files, as you told us.

My last reply here to your question:
- Follow the URL I gave you in order to setup Vegas for maximum performance.
- Make sure the Platinum 10 process is not hanged.
- Don't shoot in 60p.
- Try Vegas Pro 10 TRIAL if all else fails. Or Premiere Elements 9.

You might get unhappy about my replies, but think of it from my point of view too. Having explained the same thing over and over and over again, and only get a reply that says that the footage "doesn't work" in Vegas. The footage DOES WORK. No, you're not dumb, you just want the a magic answer. Guess what, there is no magic answer to make your Vegas Platinum 10 work in real time with 60p footage. You need CUDA hardware acceleration for that, and Vegas doesn't support CUDA.

Eugenia wrote on 4/21/2011, 7:14 PM

Alternatively, please shoot a 15 second video with your camera at the SAME resolution/bitrate as the one you're having problems with, and upload it as-is somewhere so we can try it ourselves too, and possibly give you better instructions.

musicvid10 wrote on 4/21/2011, 7:32 PM

The basics of optimizing preview playback so often get overlooked on this forum, I think it should be a sticky. I'm not saying it will cure all AVCHD playback issues, just that the preview will be optimized and you can look elsewhere for more solutions.

-- Match project to source. This is done with "Match media settings"
-- Use "Preview / Auto" as your preview mode
-- Uncheck "Scale Video to fit preview"
-- If necessary, Uncheck "Simulate device aspect"
-- Reduce Dynamic RAM allocation in Preferences

http://www.custcenter.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4233/kw/match%20media%20settings

Any effects, pan/crop, or compositing will slow preview to a crawl. That's where the prerender and Ram preview come into play.

720p should preview acceptably even on less powerful systems. If there are noncritical processes running that use CPU cycles (like Sidebar and Windows themes and enhancements), end them.

The use of an intermediate codec like Cineform (paid) or DNxHD (free) is the choice of many on the Pro forum.

HTH

ohmayamusic wrote on 4/21/2011, 7:49 PM

I am pretty smart, just not about video apparently.
:)

I am a web designer, flash designer and professional photographer which is why this is really upsetting to me that I cant get it right out of the gate. Youre right - I wanted a "magic answer" - LOL...doesn't everyone?

I do video primarily to use on my client's websites and for their social network marketing and video SEO. I am just looking for a good level of competency to be able to confidently use my camera and software and produce reliable, consistent results.

Going to call Panasonic to see if the 24p output is 24p or 24PF like you said earlier. The other issue is Im still not sure about a lot of things this camera does or how to force it to specific bitrates as it is new and I am still learning about it so when you say not to shoot in 60p Im not - Im shooting in 60i in Full HD according to the owner's guide, but I dont even know if that's the same as 60P. It looks like it's not in their manual but who knows? When I call them I get someone who doesn't speak English very well and puts me on hold only to come back and read the manual to me LOL

Wow...four paragraphs was a bit much...
:)

ohmayamusic wrote on 4/21/2011, 7:53 PM

Short and sweet...
Is 60p the same as 60i?
Is 24fps better than 30fps?
Am I better off Googling these questions? I have been googling, watching YouTube videos, reading blogs and obseesively trying to learn this the whole week.

Am I really better off hiring a videographer and go back to web design where I belong?

:)

Eugenia wrote on 4/21/2011, 7:55 PM

If you're calling PF24 as 24PF (the old way of calling it as such), then you know more than you're letting off. I can spot these things. ;-)

BTW, no need to call Panasonic, GH1's specs are available online: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonicdmcgh1/page19.asp

1080/24p on the GH1 is PF24 (meaning, 24p inside 60i, requires pulldown removal to edit without ghosting or interlacing).
And 720p is always 60p in AVCHD mode. Since you said in your first comment that your video is 720p AVCHD, then it's 60p, not 60i.

>Is 60p the same as 60i?

No. 60p requires double the processing power.

>Is 24fps better than 30fps?

Yes and no. It's worse for family/travel/sports videos, but better if you're shooting artistic or short movies or music videos. In your case though, you'd also require to buy Cineform to remove pulldown for PF24 footage. Otherwise, you will get ghosted images that look like this: http://eugenia.queru.com/images/pf24.jpg

Consider uploading 15 seconds of such a 720/60p file online for us to try it here too.

If your boss agrees, consider selling the GH1 and getting the Canon T3i btw. Much more sensible formats, true 24p, and Vegas 10 was specifically optimized around the Canon format. I know you had a T2i in the past, from your past comments, so I don't know why you switched to the GH1. Except continuous autofocus, the GH1 is not as good for video.

ohmayamusic wrote on 4/22/2011, 3:56 AM

Youre funny! :)

I referred to 24PF because I made a typo. Good catch but you give me too much credit!

I bought the GH-1 for the 14-140 zoom kit lens which is outstanding and because I already use an LX3 Camera for quick still work and really like the Panasonic DSLRs. It had been called the best DSLR on the market for video by blogs I really respect, especially Andrew Reid at eoshd.com. Check out his short here:

http://www.vimeo.com/9176830

I had a T2i briefly and it was so large and heavy and only came with a stock 50mm lens I like the Micro 4/3 camera better for portability and it can also take Canon lenses. There is also a very popular hacked firmware that allows you to shoot at up to 50mbs for incredible cinematic quaility.

I will shoot 15 seconds today when I take a break. Im not sure how or where you would like me to upload it but let me know and I will do so.

It may just be cheaper for me to grab Cineform and remove the pulldown like you recommended than try to sell the GH-1 and take a huge hit. The GH-2 just came out so it would be a legacy product at this point.

You made me chuckle about asking my boss about selling the GH-1. I started my own company in 2002 for that exact reson - so I wouldn't ever have to ask a boss for if it's ok to do anything! If the T3i is priced as sensibly at the T2i was, then I may just pick one up and keep the GH-1 for stills - it takes beautiful photos.

Is the T3i that much better than the T2i as far as sensible formats?

ohmayamusic wrote on 4/22/2011, 4:58 AM

@musicvid:
Your post about optimizing preview playback was very helpful as well - thanks!