Using .mxf instead of Cineform for now.

Laurence wrote on 7/21/2010, 9:26 AM
I have run into the situation that clips converted to Cineform codec avi using the HD Link software work fine in Vegas, but Cineform codec rendered from Vegas hang up and crash Vegas. Since the whole advantage of Cineform over .mxf is how it holds up after multiple generations, this problem pretty much renders the Cineform package useless to me, at least until this is ironed out.

Comments

Cliff Etzel wrote on 7/21/2010, 9:39 AM
Laurence - I still prefer working with frame based intermediates.

I've done alot of testing and given the nature of very slow tech/customer support with Cineform, I sold my Neoscene license due to issues that are not only like this, but Cineform deleting sections of clips at the head and tail, and audio not being in sync when transcoded with HD Link. I was told by Cineform that until they fixed it, I should edit native compressed format. That was ridiculous on their part IMO

I've since moved completely to AVID DNxHD intermediates when working in Vegas or Edius. I may encode to Canopus HQ AVI's if I'm only going to be working in Edius - which is rare.

My tests with DNxHD intermediates were less resource intensive and provided a low cost alternative to Cineform - with none of the issues I experienced and pulled my hair out over. I highly recommend them - especially with VP9.0e - they work wonderfully.

Cliff Etzel
Solo Video Journalist | Micro Documentary Film Maker
bluprojekt | SoloVJ Blog
--------
Desktop: OS: Win7 x64 | CPU: Q9400 | Mobo: Intel DG33TL | 8GB G.Skill Dual Channel RAM | Boot/Apps Drive: Seagate 160GB 7200RPM | Audio Drive: Seagate 160GB 7200RPM | Video Source: WD Black 2x750GB RAID 0 | Video Card: nVidia GeForce GT 220 1GB

Laptop: Dell Latitude D620 | C2D 2.0Ghz | 4GB G.Skill RAM | OS: Vista x64 | Primary HD: WD 320GB 7200RPM | Video HD: WD 250GB 5400RPM
Laurence wrote on 7/21/2010, 10:06 AM
DNxHD would be fine if it could exist in a .avi wrapper. I have an Intel Core2Duo laptop and it simply isn't up to handling the extra baggage that comes along with the Quicktime wrapper.
UlfLaursen wrote on 7/21/2010, 11:31 AM
Vere can you get the DNxHD and is it free? Is et easy to install?

Thanks.

/Ulf
rs170a wrote on 7/21/2010, 11:37 AM
DNxHD Codec and follow the link for the QuickTime HD codec near the bottom of the page.

Mike
PerroneFord wrote on 7/21/2010, 12:33 PM
Then use the free Matrox VfW codec. It's i-frame, and goes out to 300Mbps. It's VERY good, and my top choice when needing an AVI codec.
Laurence wrote on 7/21/2010, 12:52 PM
Do you mean this one?

http://www.matrox.com/video/en/support/windows/mxo2/downloads/utilities/

I just downloaded it and will install it after the render I am currently doing is done. Is there also a hardware accelerated version that uses a regular GPU instead of their their special hardware? I like the idea of the hardware accelerated H264 renders since I spend quite a bit of time each week rendering out mpeg4 versions for Vimeo Pro uploads. Do you go beyond the free VFW versions of their codec?
PerroneFord wrote on 7/21/2010, 1:58 PM
There are some older versions of the codec out there that have caused issues for some folks. Be sure to get the latest ones.

I have an MX02 Mini with MAX. But I do not have any utilities that leverage the MAX technology. If you have Premiere or FCP, I know it works well. Not sure about other systems. I know that neither Vegas nor Avid is able to leverage this yet.
Cliff Etzel wrote on 7/21/2010, 3:18 PM
Laurence said:

"DNxHD would be fine if it could exist in a .avi wrapper. I have an Intel Core2Duo laptop and it simply isn't up to handling the extra baggage that comes along with the Quicktime wrapper."

I beg to differ with you on that statement Laurence. I can edit wonderfully on my Dell Latitude D620 with Vegas Pro 9 - both versions running a C2D 2.0 and 4GB Ram. In the past there were issues with MOV files, but I'm seeing great performance with these files on either of my systems listed in my sig.

Cliff Etzel
Solo Video Journalist | Micro Documentary Film Maker
bluprojekt | SoloVJ Blog
--------
Desktop: OS: Win7 x64 | CPU: Q9400 | Mobo: Intel DG33TL | 8GB G.Skill Dual Channel RAM | Boot/Apps Drive: Seagate 160GB 7200RPM | Audio Drive: Seagate 160GB 7200RPM | Video Source: WD Black 2x750GB RAID 0 | Video Card: nVidia GeForce GT 220 1GB

Laptop: Dell Latitude D620 | C2D 2.0Ghz | 4GB G.Skill RAM | OS: Vista x64 | Primary HD: WD 320GB 7200RPM | Video HD: WD 250GB 5400RPM
Steve Mann wrote on 7/21/2010, 6:11 PM
I feel like a newbie, but how do you get Vegas to recognize the DNxHD or MXF codecs?
Cliff Etzel wrote on 7/21/2010, 8:15 PM
Steve - just as AVI is a wrapper for Cineform, Xvid, etc, DNxHD resides inside a QT MOV file.

When you render out a QT file, you can select the DNxHD codec as an option. You need to make sure you install it - free download from AVID.

I transcode my m2t 1080i clips to 720p and Vegas is very snappy. I even go so far as to encode them to 10bit color - similar to how Cineform does it's thing. You can also do the same thing with Canon DSLR clips. I get frame accurate encodes with Mpeg Stream clip using the Apple MPEG-2 reader for Quicktime. If you're working with AVCHD, you'll need to use something like TEMPEnc 4.0 to encode them since MPEG Stream Clip/QT doesn't read MTS clips.

Cliff Etzel
Solo Video Journalist | Micro Documentary Film Maker
bluprojekt | SoloVJ Blog
--------
Desktop: OS: Win7 x64 | CPU: Q9400 | Mobo: Intel DG33TL | 8GB G.Skill Dual Channel RAM | Boot/Apps Drive: Seagate 160GB 7200RPM | Audio Drive: Seagate 160GB 7200RPM | Video Source: WD Black 2x750GB RAID 0 | Video Card: nVidia GeForce GT 220 1GB

Laptop: Dell Latitude D620 | C2D 2.0Ghz | 4GB G.Skill RAM | OS: Vista x64 | Primary HD: WD 320GB 7200RPM | Video HD: WD 250GB 5400RPM

UlfLaursen wrote on 7/21/2010, 8:59 PM
DNxHD Codec and follow the link for the QuickTime HD codec near the bottom of the page.

Thanks Mike :)

/Ulf
UlfLaursen wrote on 7/21/2010, 10:12 PM
I just tried the DNxHD but might be doing someting wrong.

I tok 30 sec. clip 1920 x 1080 and rendered as both MXF and MOV (DNxHD). On my dualcore mackine I got full framerate playback on MXF, but far from that on the MOV.
Could that be because I set the quality to 100% in the setup of the DNxHD maybe?

Will do some more tests tonight when I'm of work :)

Thanks

/Ulf
Steve Mann wrote on 7/21/2010, 10:55 PM
Thanks, I finally found it. I am editing HDV footage, what template and Codec Configuration would you recommend to use this codec as an interediate?
Laurence wrote on 7/22/2010, 8:09 AM
>I tok 30 sec. clip 1920 x 1080 and rendered as both MXF and MOV (DNxHD). On my dualcore mackine I got full framerate playback on MXF, but far from that on the MOV.

That is EXACTLY what I was talking about when I complained about the DNxHD codec only working from within a .mov wrapper that is inefficient in Vegas. It's not the codec, it's the wrapper. Some codecs like Cineform can exist in either a .avi or a .mov wrapper. DNxHD only works in the Quicktime wrapper.
PerroneFord wrote on 7/22/2010, 9:00 AM
Incorrect. DNxHD exists in .MOV or .MXF. I have never seen the ability to create Cineform .MOV files on a PC. On a Mac... yes.

It is my understanding that the current version of Vegas Pro (9.0e?) and the newest version of Quicktime do allow the .MOV codecs to be used more smoothly. I have not verified this myself. However, when I need to work in Vegas with .AVI files, I'll use the Matrox codecs that I have previously mentioned. They are in an AVI container, they are as efficient as the MXF codec included with Vegas, and they look gorgeous. They are also free. The only significant drawback is that they are 8-bit unlike Cineform.



musicvid10 wrote on 7/22/2010, 11:10 AM
DNxHD exists in .MOV or .MXF.

I haven't seen an option to use DNxHD as MXF in Vegas 8.0c.
Have I missed an option, or is it a separate download?
PerroneFord wrote on 7/22/2010, 11:29 AM
Vegas seems to only understand Sony's implementation of MXF and no one else's. Wonder if the Canon MXF files will be read.
jabloomf1230 wrote on 7/22/2010, 12:41 PM
"I have never seen the ability to create Cineform .MOV files on a PC".

Except for Neo Scene, the remaining higher end V4 & V5 product lines all can create MOV output files on a PC. In addition, the capture/conversion utility HDLink will rewrap a Cineform AVI as MOV in a jiffy (and vice versa). One underrated benefit of using Cineform is that you can seamlessly exchange files between Mac and PC-based systems.
Laurence wrote on 7/22/2010, 12:48 PM
Cineform is awesome when it works. Unfortunately right now it only works for me first generation out of HD Link, not rendered from Vegas. I have no doubt I'll be back using Cineform shortly. I just need some other option because it doesn't always work after minor Vegas/Cineform updates. When it doesn't work, I can't just sit around trying to figure out what's wrong. I need something to get me through whatever project is at hand. Right now I am using .mxf and that is getting me through this current project.
PerroneFord wrote on 7/22/2010, 1:38 PM
Excellent to know. Thank you. And yes I knew Cineform was multi-platform. To be fair so is DNxHD.
Laurence wrote on 7/22/2010, 2:44 PM
Yeah but Cineform is both .mov and .avi whereas DNxHD is just .mov. Hardly noticable to the fast quad core guys but a deal breaker to dual core users like me.
Cliff Etzel wrote on 7/22/2010, 3:59 PM
Well the supposed deal breaker as a dual core user makes no sense to me Laurence.

I just encoded a batch of m2t clips to 720p 110mbps 10 bit color DNxHD intermediates on my Dell D620 C2D laptop. My primary drive is a 320gb 7200 rpm drive and my video drive is a lowly 250GB 5400 RPM drive.

I stacked 5 tracks with the clips and they played back RT Best Full preview setting - even added some dissolves between the clips. Frame rate dropped to about 22 fps and then went back to RT.

Settings were 720-30p 8bit color. This would be typical for assembling a project. Then switch out to 32bit to grade as needed.

I actually experienced less performance with Cineform - and none of my editing computers is state of the art i7 chipsets with triple channel ram.

Machine specs in my sig.

I think there a negative stigma for MOV files. I have yet to have a SINGLE issue using DNxHD MOV files for editing.

Cliff Etzel
Solo Video Journalist | Micro Documentary Film Maker
bluprojekt | SoloVJ Blog
--------
Desktop: OS: Win7 x64 | CPU: Q9400 | Mobo: Intel DG33TL | 8GB G.Skill Dual Channel RAM | Boot/Apps Drive: Seagate 160GB 7200RPM | Audio Drive: Seagate 160GB 7200RPM | Video Source: WD Black 2x750GB RAID 0 | Video Card: nVidia GeForce GT 220 1GB

Laptop: Dell Latitude D620 | C2D 2.0Ghz | 4GB G.Skill RAM | OS: Vista x64 | Primary HD: WD 320GB 7200RPM | Video HD: WD 250GB 5400RPM
IAM4UK wrote on 7/22/2010, 4:04 PM
Laurence, can you describe a bit more about the problem? I use VegasPro 9.0e-64 on a Win-7 machine, and have used Cineform for both intermediates and for Vegas renders. Not having experienced the problem you reported (and knocking on wood), I am curious about it.
MarkWWW wrote on 7/23/2010, 7:22 AM
It's not actually necessary to own the more expensive versions of Cineform to rewrap CF files from .avi to .mov (or vice versa) - Cineform have kindly provided a command line tool to do the job for free. See the discussion here.

Not quite as smooth as having it built in to the HDLink application, but for those people who don't need anything more expensive than Neo Scene for their own purposes but occasionally need to produce a CF file as a .mov rather than an .avi (typically to send to someone using a Mac who refuses to accept an .avi) it is extremely useful.

Mark