Thanks very much Dave...so it would be better to use one of these programs as opposed to rendering to AVI in Vegas ?
Sorry if this is a dumb question but I've never even heard of these programs (so I may have a couple more questions after installing).
Thanks again Dave,
Randy

I use an mpeg editor called Mpeg Wizard for this purpose. Mpeg Wizard edits mpeg video natively and only rerenders parts that change like the transitions. It is fast, way faster than trying to import the files back into Vegas, and the end quality is exactly the same as the source (except on a few transitions which still look very good).

Check it out at womble.com

I'll be doing the edit with the client...ummmm....is it as intuitive as Vegas....I'd hate to be using help files with the client here : )

EDIT: on 2nd thought I guess I could always make the edit in Vegas and maybe cut/paste later?

Thanks very much Lawrence,
Randy

Randy,

Those are not programs, but Codecs that you can render to. They might save some quality.

Dave T2

Oh so after installing it Vegas will automatically see them and I can select them as a "render as"?

Yeah. Then you can edit as much as you want and render without losing anymore quality than you already have. Womble works a bit differently. It tries to stay in the native MPEG2 format, which might be all that you need. But the Codecs are free and you already have Vegas. You have to buy Womble I believe.

YOu would want to render to these codecs before your client gets there and then treat them as you would any source video.

Dave T2

Very cool...then unless I hear otherwise I will install Lagarith (it professes to be better than Huffyuv) and render and then bring back into Vegas for editing....right?
Thanks for your patience,
Randy

Yeah. The new files will be much larger than your MPEG files, but not as big as uncompressed.

Hope it works for you.

Dave T2

I'm afraid I have some (what may be) dumb questions for you Dave.
I downloaded/installed Lagarith and it didn't prompt me 32 bit or 64 bit so I'm guessing it knew I'm running (Win 7) 64 bit?
I opened up an .mpg in Vegas, selected the clip and then selected "render as". What would the codec be listed under and would it be a good idea to upsample once I do find it?
(the website states: "Version 1.3.20 introduced a new option to prevent upsampling when decoding. Checking this option and having the mode set to RGB or RGBA will prevent Lagarith from performing any colorspace conversions when encoding or decoding video.")
And the dumbest question of all is: the website states "Lagarith is able to operate in several colorspaces - RGB24, RGB32, RGBA, YUY2, and YV12. "
ummm, how do I know which one to use...the footage is from SD mini DV and I rendered this to the DVDA template.
Thanks very much sir,
Randy

I don't use Lagarith, but I know others here do so I will have to defer to them. The codec should be found under the AVI list. You will have to choose render as an AVI and the customize and select the codec from that menu.

Dave T2

Okay can anyone tell me what to look for under "windows for video (avi)" ?
Again thanks for your patience amigos,
Randy

Choose uncompressed, the click the Custom button. In there you'll find a list of the installed codecs to choose from.

The idea that using Lagarith or Huffyuv will prevent quality loss is somewhat misleading. It may minimize quality lost but it won't prevent it. In the end you'll still have started with a highly compressed MPEG file and are rendering to a highly compressed MPEG file. This is going to result in quality loss even if you use uncompressed inbetween. You'll just have less loss than if you used a more compressed intermediate.

Avoiding colorspace conversions will help limit the loss too. Every colorspace conversion throws away some color data so it's good to avoid that.

In fact, if the amount of time it takes isn't an issue, you should simply edit the original MPEG files on the timeline and render directly to the new MPEG file. This will reduce the number of conversions to 1. Any sections that Vegas can smart-render will have 0 conversions performed which is the best possible scenario. If time is important and disk space isn't then use uncompressed for the intermediate. Just remember that using any intermediate of any sort means decoding & reencoding at least once, and probably twice if you don't use uncompressed.

I believe you can use the Womble program free for a trial period. Believe me, doing it my way is so much faster and the end result is so much higher quality, that you will happily fork over the $50 bucks or so after you try it once.

This is a situation that happens all the time. You finish a project. You clear it off your drives. Then a year or so later the client comes back with a spelling mistake or some small change and all you have to work with is the DVD.

I stitch an mpeg 2 back together by putting all the DVD VOBs on an Mpeg Wizard timeline, do the edit, render it back out and reauthor it either with DVD Architect or the DVD authoring on the Womble program. It is quick, uses hardly any disc space because of the mpeg2 compression, and the finished new DVD is the same exact video quality as the old one.

Another use for this program is editing stuff shot at the local church with their 3 camera switcher setup and a DVD recorder. I can do edits, titles, and DVD authoring and not loose even the tiniest bit of quality in the process.

I love Vegas, but for this type of thing, Mpeg Wizard is the perfect tool.

Chienworks and Laurence are both right of course. I suggested the other method because Vegas works slower with MPEG files than other files. If a client is sitting next to you, it can be disconcerting watching the frames redraw slowly.

and just to be clear, I did not say that my method would not cause quality loss, it will just make editing easier and minimize the loss.

Dave T2

Vegas can smart-render the video portion of an mpeg2 file derived from a DVD VOB, but not the audio AC3 part (which it will rerender).

Womble Mpeg Wizard previews really fast, smart-renders both the video and the audio, and renders out the new file at file copy speeds. A really handy thing to have every so often.

Besides Womble Mpeg Wizard, I use a program called "VideoReDo" which has worked a little better for me. It can losslessly cut and join MPEG2 files including AC3 audio.

http://www.videoredo.com

Thanks very much Kelly, Dave and Laurence!
I'm off to download the trial of mpeg wizard.
Thanks again guys,
Randy

I would suggest trying both Mpeg Wizard and Video ReDo. They do the same thing and both are good, but you might prefer one over the other. I heard of Video ReDo after I already had Mpeg Wizard so that is my preference, but both are excellent programs and will do what you want to do painlessly.

edit: Just looking over the Video ReDo link. Wow, that does look a little nicer than Womble. That's probably the way to go if you don't already have something.

Thanks Laurence,
I'm messing around with womble right now...seems easy enough.
I have a question though (which should have been brought up before).
This re-edit needs to be delivered on mini DV (for a Closed Caption service and then on to RFD-TV to be aired) will either of these print-to-tape or should I render to avi and then import into Vegas?
Thanks again Laurence,
Randy

Well the reason they want a Mini DV tape is because they don't want the inferior quality of a DVD. Too late though since that is your source material. You're going to have to re-render into DV codec no matter how you do it it seems. In this case there is no advantage to doing it with Mpeg Wizard or Video Redo since the point of that approach is to re-edit a DVD without losing quality.

Not that doing it with the Mpeg editor isn't as good as doing it in Vegas. In this case it's six of one half a dozen of the other. It really makes no difference. You'll have at least one generation of rendering no matter how you do it.

Very sorry guys, I should have mentioned it having to print to tape upfront but I didn't realize that DVD is poorer quality than mini DV tape (even though now when I think about it, yes of course it has to be compressed to fit on DVD).
Thanks again for everyones time and patience,
Randy

It is probably a non-issue now considering the way the thread has headed, but I tried Womble some time ago but did not like the jagged look of the preview using PAL. Womble seems to have been optimized for NTSC.

I think what was happening was that PAL's 576 lines were being converted to 480 for display, and you get a group of lines from one field alternating with the lines from the other. It is a while now and I may be off the mark. Anyway, I preferred Video-redo at the time.