"Exchange" of BWF files?

tomaras wrote on 7/10/2009, 9:14 AM
Just re-reading the advertising claims for Vegas 9 and it talks about Broadcast Wave support which allows for the "exchange" of BWF audio files with other sound and video editors. I always thought EXCHANGE would indicate a two way street. There is NO WAY to exchange a timecode stamped BWF file with anyone else with Vegas, you can only receive the file and import it. We need the ability to save/render a BWF audio file so we can hand it off to someone else who may be using completely different applications.

Comments

musicvid10 wrote on 7/10/2009, 12:50 PM
There has been lots of discussion about this, and there is lots of support for addressing it in a future version. Do a search for those discussions.

In the meantime, some of us have found Wave Agent Beta helpful. No idea if it's still beta, or still free.
Geoff_Wood wrote on 7/10/2009, 3:56 PM
In the meantime there is AAF.

And Trackaliser as a workaround.

geoff
rraud wrote on 7/10/2009, 6:13 PM
"Exchange" .. I hear ya Charles, this has been a stone in my shoe.

I could never get AAF to work except in/out of Vegas.

In Wave Agent, (beta) one must start out with a BWF in order to edit the TC. It will not just create the additional metadata parameters from a normal .WAV . unless I'm missing something.
musicvid10 wrote on 7/10/2009, 6:28 PM
It will not just create the additional metadata parameters from a normal .WAV . unless I'm missing something.

Pretty sure this is how I did it for a client back in Feb.
Will check again though, just to make sure.
farss wrote on 7/11/2009, 6:26 AM
As a video guy I'll again add my voice to the call for the ability to output timecoded audio files. I have so far had no need to exchange such files however even within Vegas they'd be extremely usefull.

Vegas simply lacks the ability to lock vision and sound. I currently record audio to a 4 track recorder. I'm thinking some time in the medium term to expand my kit to a 16 track recorder. I'll never have the capital to genlock cameras and an audio recorder so I'll always be syncing by eye / earballing. That's easily enough done in Vegas except having gotten everything in sync keeping it there is a signficantly distracting task. Being able to render some form of timecoded multichannel audio would give a very simple way of visually checking that everything was in sync or if out to get it back into sync.

Bob.
musicvid10 wrote on 7/11/2009, 7:12 AM
The makers of portable recorders need to add TC and genlock, period.
I was sorely disappointed when the new version of the H4 came out without this capability.
rraud wrote on 7/11/2009, 9:52 AM
When I do second system recording, I normally send a rough mix to the camera via wireless for a solid sync reference, even if I'm running TC. It's easier and more accurate aligning audio-to-audio in post.
When I start a new post audio project, I'll create a sync reference track, group that to picture and lock those tracks.
The audio events can be locked but unfortunately it locks all the other parameters too, necessitating unlocking the event leaving it vulnerable to accidentally moving it on the timeline, which is easy to do. It would be nice if we could just lock a track to the timeline leaving the other parameters unlocked.
I had requested this long ago... many times, but like BWF export and OMF support, it falls on deaf ears. I don't think anyone at SCS ever uses this app. in the "real" world.

Addendum: "The makers of portable recorders need to add TC and genlock, period."
- If the H4n had TC and genlock, it would cost much more than $350. The SD 744 has these, but you know how much that costs.
That said, the H4n does have TC.. well, sort of... It renders BWFs and stamps the file to whatever the TOD clock is set to. Better than nothing I guess and not bad for the $.
musicvid10 wrote on 7/11/2009, 10:02 AM
The SD 744 has these, but you know how much that costs.

Yes, if I had the $$ I would use Sound Devices for everything.
I'm particularly envious of their field mixers. The guys that work for our "real" local production companies swear by them.
farss wrote on 7/11/2009, 4:42 PM
Even if one did have genlocked audio from a second source how does one keep it in sync using Vegas. All it saves is having to manually sync sound to vision.

I guess one possible solution might be to render an AVI file with burnt in TC and multitrack audio, I might try this and see if that'll fly.

If anyones interested the multitrack "recorder" I'm thinking about is the A&H ZED R16. That in theory give me the ability to create a FOH mix plus record 16 inputs to a laptop.

Bob.
musicvid10 wrote on 7/11/2009, 5:12 PM
It will not just create the additional metadata parameters from a normal .WAV . unless I'm missing something.

rraud,
Went back to my original project, and:
Yes, Wave Agent easily adds and edits metadata and timecode to normal WAV files.
I had just changed the extension to .bwf after editing and saving in Wave Agent.
The producer I did them for never complained, so I guess they worked.

Also noticed it will rename by scene and take, split and reorder multiple tracks, and do 2xmono->stereo and vice versa. Another poster asked about this last one a couple of weeks ago. I'll get back to him.

BTW, it appears to be no longer a beta, and still free.
Should be a good solution for the OP's question.
Going to download the latest now.

=========================================
Even if one did have genlocked audio from a second source how does one keep it in sync using Vegas.
(Because it's already in sync when recorded).
All it saves is having to manually sync sound to vision.

Bob,
A bigger advantage than that is that the outboard audio will be faithfully locked to the camera audio; i.e., no detectable drift, just like when two cameras are genlocked. This would make my live event videos so much easier to edit; I'm still breaking my ambient audio from the H4 into 10-minute chunks and aligning each clip by hand with the camera (board feed) audio tracks. It's because I don't like the random drift and quantization noise from time stretch on long projects, (>30 min.), but it's very time consuming and (rarely) causes audible mini-gaps in the rear 5.1.

The reason I don't feed the H4 audio to one of the cameras is simple: CH1 = vocal mix, CH2 = orch mix, both of which must be uninterrupted during tape changes. Of course, both cams are already freerun TC linked and genlocked.
newhope wrote on 7/11/2009, 6:57 PM
We've all posted requests for BWF many times before. Sony keep calling Vegas a 'Pro' application but it falls down on the very basic functions that real 'Pro' applications supply as basic parts of the software.

It's these failings,plus lousy implementation of AAF to and from other applications and the poor AVCHD performance, that have stopped me from upgrading to Vegas 9. That's after having bought every version since Vegas 4. I'm still using Vegas 8, where it is the most practical solution, but have migrated the greater part of my video and audio post production away to other 'Pro' applications that do offer the necessities.

Maybe Vegas 10 will really be 'Pro' and bring me back.... though I won't hang by my thumbs waiting.
tomaras wrote on 7/12/2009, 8:10 AM
As the OP on this discussion I will add.

I have both Vegas 9 and Sound Forge 9. I'm a location sound mixer and own both the Sound Devices 744t and 788t recorders. I use Wave Agent and Broadcast Widget Pro amoung other utilities to deal with the files I create.

What I'm sorely lacking is the ability to listen to and edit the length of a file and then pass it on as a BWF to the video editors who are working on my projects. Sure I can open files in Vegas and SF and perform normalization and EQ on them and save them back in the same wav format without altering the timecode metadata but I cannot edit the front or the back side of them, nor can I split them into smaller chunks or excise single tracks,while preserving TC in the INDUSTRY STANDARD BWF format that FCP, AVID, and Premier can injest directly to a corresponding timeline.

Vegas touts itself as a PRO Audio application yet it is completely unsuited to this task in the world of proffesional audio for video.
musicvid10 wrote on 7/12/2009, 9:25 AM
I'm guessing there are two agendas here -- the issue of bwf export in Vegas is not going to be fixed right away, despite a litany of voices demanding it be done right this minute. Calling Sony unprofessional is not going to get it fixed any faster.

What I'm sorely lacking is the ability to listen to and edit the length of a file and then pass it on as a BWF . . .
The workaround for the immediate problem, of being able to take a .wav file from Vegas, and easily convert it to compliant .bwf with full control over tags, headers, and TC, appears to be solved by the free utilities the OP mentioned above, unless I have missed something. (I would get Wave Agent now before they start asking a grand for it!)
newhope wrote on 7/13/2009, 7:21 AM
I'm guessing there are two agendas here -- the issue of bwf export in Vegas is not going to be fixed right away, despite a litany of voices demanding it be done right this minute. Calling Sony unprofessional is not going to get it fixed any faster.

No it isn't going to be done right this minute, but SMS have been ignoring the request for quite a long time. Even before they added the "Pro" suffix onto the Vegas name.

I'm not calling Sony unprofessional but I am saying that Vegas isn't in the same league as true professional software that offer these as the basics. It just doesn't cut it in the professional ranks even though it is a fantastic piece of software that I use, but unfortunately, less often than I used to.

I'll give you an example of how Vegas doesn't function at a professional level. One of my clients edits on AVID and passes on an AAF to me with separate vision for audio edit and mix. If I had a MOJO I could import the AVID vision as well but as I don't a Quicktime is sufficient... I mix the audio to a full stereo mix plus VO, Sync and FX and Music stems and send the mixes (all BWF) back as an AAF so they can lay them back to Digibeta. I do this with ProTools LE with DVToolkit 2.

In Vegas I can't even open the AAF that is sent from AVID nor can any AAF I create in Vegas be opened by either AVID or ProTools. I can't output BWF files from Vegas which, if I could I would be able to convert to OMF using EDL Convert and send on to AVID.
musicvid10 wrote on 7/13/2009, 11:33 AM
In deference to your point of view, Stephen, I'm sure I would feel annoyed also if I had to do this more than just occasionally . . .
tomaras wrote on 7/21/2009, 5:04 PM
Well..9.0a update and still no useful BWF support. And the wait for Sony to properly support "two way" exchange of PROFESSIONAL audio continues. Glad they worked on flac and MP3 issues in this release, I know ALL of us were waiting for that so we can professionally exchange MP3 and Flac files.
jbolley wrote on 7/23/2009, 7:54 AM
For what its worth I have exported AAF with sound and vision from Vegas to an Adobe Premier system with little problem. BWF import is nice.
Sigh.
Jesse
Geoff_Wood wrote on 7/23/2009, 2:13 PM
I have swapped AAF files both way to Profools and back. A bit fiddly, esp at the PT end.

It would be a great plus to be able to directly load (at least elements of) a PT project directly. And save it. Of course the re/constrictions of PT projects would have to apply wrt project media spec, etc.

Also full BWF and OMF. It would be a huge boost for Vegas 9 and Acid), ans it would facilitate easy demonstration to other platform users on what they are missing.

geoff
newhope wrote on 7/24/2009, 6:34 AM
Geoff

I have exported an AAF out of ProTools, from an ADR session and imported into a Vegas 5.1 mix.

It worked but the results were somewhat alarming and I had to dive for the UNDO (CTRL-Z) button.

It reverted my whole project from 5.1 back to stereo.

I'll qualify this by saying I was using Vegas 7 at the time and haven't ever attempted it again in Vegas 8 and won't be buying Vegas 9 anytime soon unless they address the problems, like this and the points posted earlier.

Give it a try if you want to ruin your day or you've got a spare hour to fiddle.

I bought Neyrink's Mix 5.1 for ProTools LE for my next 5.1 mix project. This despite the fact that the 5.1 mix I did with Vegas, 'Death's Requiem' won the Best Sound for a Short Film in 2007 in the Screen Sound Guild Awards here in Oz.

Latest project 'Tira Bakal' won Best Documentary and Best Director at the NEFFA Awards and has just screened at the Indianapolis Independent Film Festival and is heading for Rhode island and Solento in Italy.
Geoff_Wood wrote on 7/24/2009, 6:33 PM
Congrats !

Have you tried the V8 or V9 demos to see if the old 5.1 project imports any better ?


geoff
rraud wrote on 7/25/2009, 6:18 PM
BTW, Reaper now supports OMF. Opens & extracts files with most of the usual EDL parameters, AND renders too, From what I have read it works pretty consistent with FCP, Avid, PTs, Sonar and Nuendo among other OMF app.s.
However it does not support BWFs- TC metadata, but that is soon to be added, I would think.
Reaper does not support AAF . Vegas does... but it does not work for most cross application duties... So what good is Vegas' AAF?
Come'on, SCS, get with it!
newhope wrote on 7/26/2009, 5:38 AM
Geoff

Haven't tried it with V8 which I own, haven't bother downloading V9 demo and don't really have any plans to do so at this time.

It isn't offering me anything new that I would regularly use so I'll stay with V8 for the moment.

I'm afraid that ProTools is my main audio application, I earn money working in broadcast with it and have just been mixing a TV soap, 'Home and Away' for those who know it, here in my own studio rather than commuting to Channel 7.

FCP has become my video editing software. I'd rather spend the dollars upgrading to the new FCP package when push comes to shove.

Though I still use Vegas for some of my audio only work.
farss wrote on 7/26/2009, 6:34 AM
Don't know if this thread in the video forum is of any interest:

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=666395&Replies=0

No one seems interested there but if this $39 program works it could address some of the issues, especially if the developers keep it up to date.

Bob.
rraud wrote on 7/27/2009, 5:11 AM
Farss, Thanks for that info.