I'll add to that.

If you do large CGI or lesser but maybe complex titling, and work that DOES take much time, then the time will take over the editing. How about interim renders I do to test-edit work? Is that part of the edit or part of what you call render?

I don't think it is straight forward.

Grazie

I don't charge for render time - these days I don't sit watching while it happens, I am earning money doing another task, either on the same or a different computer. Big render jobs are usually done whilst I'm out or asleep.

I usually don't charge for capture and render. I usually use more time than put in my offer, but for me it is hobby business, so it's not a big deal for me.

/Ulf

Peter, agreed: "I am earning money doing another task, either on the same or a different computer."

And I still want to know why our chum is asking the question. It would kinda "frame" our responses?

Grazie

My reason for the question is that I am an IRS agent and I am snooping around for tax cheats!

Just kidding.

I sometimes have to evaluate video editors in my line of work (project manager). I wanted to poll the users of this forum to see what their practices were as far as billing for all the time invested in a project. With render times being as long as they are in some projects, I just wanted to guage whether it was standard practice to bill for that time (or some derivative of that time).

Thanks again for your input.

if I wasn't using vegas I most likely would. Why? Vegas lets you run multiple instances, so even if it IS rendering I can work on something else if I wanted to. With other NLE's it's only 1 instance at a time.

I do bill a small amount for rendering to buy down my computer's amortization. But my time is not productive for that project while the computer is doing all the work.

If I work on something else, like the DVD menus and cover art, then that's additional billing hours.

I don't bill for the full amount of render time, as I'm either working on another project while it's rendering (and I bill that separate project) or I'm not working at that time. Somewhere, though, I need to account for the equipment use and energy/electricity expense that's occurring with the rendering. I do the same as Steve... I bill a percentage of that time to cover costs.

There was probably a time where you'd need to bill during rendering time, as that was all you could do at one time with the systems available, but I think that time is ending, as with any vocation where increased efficiency reduces labor/cost. Of course, for those who've made a name for themselves as producers, I suppose they can charge what they want and get it.

I am very interested in this thread and hope a lot more producers give some input

Pre renders are a part of the final product as we do our voiceovers last this helps copywriters to finalise copy. we need to follow this process
So this is part of the production process and should be taken into account

Production meetings are a part of the process as your PC's aren’t working at that time you still charge for your time

I would also like to know from other producers out there

How long would it take you to produce a 30 sec Clip

From concept to final render “” I know “how long is a piece of string” if you produce a lot then give an average

Rory

This is a good topic and one that has varying answers but here is mine. Sometimes I run into editors or videographers who are also the owner of the business and I feel that they forget that they are a business owner first before they are an editor

If a person is conducting such business commercially and relies on it to pay for all business expenses and salaries then one must seriously consider charging for render time. Why? No matter if its you or your computer doing the work.... your resources are being provided to the client.

Personally I do not charge based on how long the render takes because this will be influenced on the type of system that is doing the render. We all know that today's technologies outperform the single core systems. Depending on the project I charge a one time fixed fee for rendering. This way its fair to the business that some form of revenue is created and then client benefits from the fact that it may be 1 or 10 renders involved they do not pay any more money.

Just my two cents,

Chad

If a person is conducting such business commercially and relies on it to pay for all business expenses and salaries then one must seriously consider charging for render time. Why? No matter if its you or your computer doing the work.... your resources are being provided to the client.

Agreed! After all, I don't record the image, the camera does! Same difference on the other end. You need equipment to take the image in and you need equipment to get the image out. That's gonna cost ya.

I charge Half Rate for Digitizing the elements into the system if I am billing the project by the hour. generally I bill by the project and I include my digitize time into the equasion becuase I sit there and digitize scenes not tapes. This makes me very familiar with the elements I have to work with and in doing so saves time in the overall edit. I then charge a separate line item for output. Many of my clients want web, flash drive, iPone (3G) and DVD for final delivery. I charge to render these file outputs and deliver masters to the client as well as archiving their project on an external hard drive.

Mike

"How long would it take you to produce a 30 sec Clip "

Of what? I can do a 30-second interview in less than a day, but a 30-minute commercial could take a week.

Look at it from the standpoint of the customer and whether you want repeat business as part of your income.

I contracted a shoot (only, no post) recently and got what I paid for -- until I ordered a set of dupes for safety. The price of the shoot was fair considering the equipment and camera work I expected, but the guy charged full pop to duplicate the tapes -- over six hours at his full hourly rate. This just didn't set well with me, because he could pay a high school kid to change the tapes every hour.

Bottom line is, if it's skilled labor, charge accordingly. If you're able to do other things during that time, then charge half or less. A savvy customer isn't going to take kindly to paying you $40 - $60 / hour while you cook your dinner.

Billing can be a bit of an art form but Pmooney is looking at it from the point of view of a project manager looking at other people's bills. It can be a problem when you are looking at bills or bids and see that one guy charges for render time and another doesn't.

Obviously, if he's looking at bids he could just pick the bid he likes. If he's reviewing invoices, maybe he's seeing a charge for rendering that he didn't anticipate and maybe he's wondering if that's a cost that could be reduced.

Usually, a render keeps an edit station busy and interferes with other jobs. In my opinion it needs to be folded into the overall cost and not left out on the table for negotiation.

Ideally, it's best to charge for people over equipment. When you do that you communicate that you're charging for your skills and if you behave well people will respect that and value you. Non labor charges are the things you can negotiate, you always cut those first.

Rob Mack

Rob, exactly. And that was my motivation in asking my original response to him.

OK, putting aside the "quip" about the IRS, there does come a time, for a Project Manager, reviewing scales of costs, that they TOO have to have a pragmatic view on the minutiae of a project. There does come a point when in scoping a project that MORE information is LESS. Meaning one could end up NOT seeing the Wood for the Trees. What I was attempting to do was to elicit from our friend here, just WHAT he was looking for? Maybe he had been presented with an "unrealistic" project cost? Maybe? How do we know?

Personally, renders and render times are not a "deal-breaker" for me. If I was creating a majorly large particle render "program" to create some HD output, and there is at least one chap amongst us who DOES do this, then yes. I can see and would appreciate why "render" WOULD be a very visible cost that would need to be itemised.

Look, we all do it to some extent and that is, "fold-in" costs - I guess. It is really up to the client<>provider pre-production scoping process that will either delineate this as an item that needs/requires separating out.

Truly? - I guess it is what becomes the deal-breaker that is paramount. Mostly we all trundle along doing what we do, carrying forward what we have learned and garnered from previous jobs. It is ONLY the times when something focuses our attention on a deviation from that norm that I do a double take and think - "Oh, now THAT'S a new way of . . . . . " - Again, here I am speaking of new ways of approaching the business-end of things - specifically here, charging for render time being a new one, presently under the "spotlight".

So, does our chum have a further way forward on this? Is it a case of too much variation blurring a considered decision? Or is it at the "deal-breaker" position?

Grazie

Exactly.

I've gotta say after a little consideration, that I might want to charge a fee for render time after all. If the original deal was for WMV files and then they ask for variations or h.264 renders or something then I'd want to have established that renders have a price.

Maybe just charge for additional edit time rather than renders to account for setting up the task, monitoring it, and finishing it. Or charge for the length of the program rather than the length of the render.

While I'm not editing at work I have had to quote a couple of jobs and then manage them. You want to start with a reasonable quote that serves your own needs but is detailed enough that it can be trimmed, and detailed enough to add more charges if they're warranted. If a client asks for too many revisions you need some foundation for charging more.

Rob

thanks Steve

thats exactly the type of answer i was looking for

Rory

Dear Gentlemen,

Thank you all very much for taking the time to respond to this thread. Your answers have given me a lot to think about and will help me evaluate the quality and efficiency of video editors in future projects.

Happy Monday!

You should be receiving our invoices shortly.