So Sony is demoing a 64-bit Vegas at NAB, which is interesting. Vegas was probably the least in need of this (PPro is a memory pig and some users are desparate for a 64-bit version) because it handles memory pretty well.

I wonder where that leaves 32-bit Vegas? Considering that most consumers are NOT installing 64-bit Windows, what is Madison going to sell to them? I find it hard to believe that Sony, Adobe, or anyone else would simply drop 32-bit versions of their software in favor of 64-bit versions. I also find it hard to believe that Madison won't release a 32-bit version that doesn't address some Vista needs, like getting the media manager working. Regardless of some people's opinions of Media Manager (which amount to saying "I don't use it so anyone who does is a @#$%!")

A couple of other points. Since they demoed the 64-bit Vegas we can assume they've been working on it for a bit. They've kept their lips well sealed about that. Also, you have to assume that this has been an opportunity to rewrite things. That's hopeful since some parts of Vegas were long in the tooth.

Rob Mack

You're right about that. The desire for 10bit far exceeds the calls for 64-bit. I think though that this may have been an opportunity to do all sorts of other rewrites.

Also, if a 32-bit version is still a viable product, and I think it is, could this 64-bit version be marketed as a higher end version?

Rob

As much as I hate to say this..because I'm a long time user and lover of vegas (since version 2.0) ...FCPS 2 is calling me over to the other side. And I never thought I would say that because I've never really been interested in FCP...but so much is offered in that package. I wish there was a Vegas Pro Studio.

Hmmm. That brings up something else. All the Sony products would need to at least install and run on Vista64. Meaning they have to do some work there as well.

One thing about people jumping ship is that they'll probably be given good upgrade prices on Vegas later on. It's easy to come back later if you want and you'll be making a more informed decision after using other NLEs.

Rob Mack

I would imagine (No basis for this statement though - just my opinion) that if the whiz kids in Madison are doing a 64bit version, that there is going to be other features added that we still don't know about. As someone who has tried to like Vegas - I couldn't wrap my head around its methodology - but with this announcement - I for the first time feel seriously compelled to learn it. Using 64bit XP Pro has been an outright pleasure - no more crashes, no low on memory messages. To have the this announcement along with the Handycam form factor EX XDCAM just begs for SONY to make major waves in the market.

Partnering with AMD was a good choice IMO - their technology as compared to Intel's is superior from what I have read so far. Looks like this year will be a good place to be for HD and Vegas

Once could almost make the analogy that SONY's apps are the equivalent of Apples suite. They utilize MS specific code and as such, utilize specific calls on the base code to improve spped and stability.

Partnering with AMD might be a good idea but of course Vegas will have to work with Intel processors as well. In fact, I don't see on the face of it any special tie-in to AMD. But AMD has other hardware projects in the works that would go nicely with a 64-bit OS.

Anyone care to refresh us on upgrading an existing 32-bit Vista to 64-bit Vista? (and yes you can assume that everything will be targeted at Vista64, not XP64)

Rob

Ironically enough, creating a 64 bit version will be a lot easier for Vegas than it would be for PPro. Why? Because of Vegas's relatively closed architecture with plugins and codecs.

Making the application work in 64 bits is not enough. The codecs also must be rewritten in 64 bits. That probably means that Sony is working with their codec providers (like the MPG2) and rewriting the ones they did themselves. Same thing liekly holds true for other 3rd party addons.

If PPro went to 64 bits, a lot of the boatloads of third party add-ons people use would mostly be rendered useless (pardon the pun). And from various posts I've read, it seems that a great deal of PPro's features are not in the base NLE. That's where Vegas has a strength - more functionality in the base NLE (except for the titler...).

Vegas's third party developers will have to scramble to be 64-bit capable, but that will involve fewer vendors. And I also wonder if it means the new app will move away from Video for Windows? Is VfW strongly supported in 64-bit Vista?

I would think that handling 10-bit HD files would require bigger files, more memory, and more data manipulation. That's where a 64-bit app could really shine. It could handle 10-bit files better and faster than competitor apps. And the competitor apps might be slow to follow due to the outcry from users of 3rd party apps.

Vegas is pretty good about memory management. Maybe with a true 64-bit app it could load more data into memory at a time and render faster.

Rob - I agree - there isn't anything specific to AMD so to speak - but I do find it interesting that the underdogs in each of their respective products are joining forces to create some type of a partnership that will benefit both involved. I was an Intel user for a long time, when I made the jump to AMD last fall, the logic behind their technology made sense Why keep using an outdated form of technology the way Intel is?

The topic of Vista - no thanks - but until MS figures out all the issues with the OS, I'm sticking with XP 64bit - and SONY's track record of keeping things happy with their apps running on Win2K even today seems to instill some confidence that there will be compatability for x64 XP Pro.

Jayster - I agree with you - the third party plugins are fewer so there is less obsolescence so to speak than with an app from Adobe or Avid. I am sure the programmers in Madison would lend a hand to get things working (just guessing on that though)

If the 64 bit version will address the 10 bit video and improve the titler, I would be a happy camper as I am finally considering the move to HD this year - and would seriously consider the move away from the Adobe suite. I use PPro because it's a compromise for me - alot of third party plugins and the titler are what keep me using it right now. I still find Vegas lacking in the titling arena - the rest I can deal with, but it really does slow me down as compared how PPro's titler works.

I have to assume that Adobe will release a 64-bit version of PP3 to solve some memory issues. Since we use PP2 here at my workplace I see a lot more of the rants and threats to jump ship to anything else besides PPro. (BTW, one of the ranters is a former Vegas forum moderator and he doesn't miss a chance to praise Vegas to the PPro users)

10-bit doesn't *require* a 64-bit OS, but sure it would help with memory. You're right that the files are bigger, but it's also that a 10-bit user will usually not be trying to edit raw Mpeg based media but is more likely to transcode to a 4:2:2 format of some sort.

One thing we've noticed in the PP2 realm is that specialized hardware processing puts a memory load on PP, while also taking address space from the system. So 64-bit gives Vegas and any NLE more hardware options since there's no competition for address space.

You're right that Sony is dealing with a lot of things that they control since there are so few third party filters and plugins. Also, projects like this tend to free up some development money since some new features and rewrites can be rolled into the budget more economically than they would if it was a plain version rev.

rob mack

We can certainly hope that things will work in XP64 but you know they have to develop for Vista. And I think MS is making a slightly more assertive push to get Vista64 into the hands of consumers.

Rob

Instead of releasing a 32 bit and a 64 bit bersion, Sony could be releasing a hybrid version- along the lines of what Cakewalk did with Sonar. I am not sure exactly how it works, but it is able to perform 64Bit processing even on a 32 bit OS - or something like that. but the processing is even better on a 64 bit OS. hmmm....just a thought.

Maybe someone at NAB can ask them what their intentions are with 32-bit Vegas.

P@ was making the point that if a release isn't coming until the end of the year then what about HD authoring in DVD Architect? There's definitly a need for it that shouldn't be put off that long.

Rob

That is one of the worst-written press releases ever. Sony Creative Software marketing is so completely incompetent. Please, let us all review the first lecture in "Marketing 101" in which the professor states:

OK, class, the most important principle of marketing is to inform your target market of the BENEFITS of the features your products offer. We call this a "features/benefit" analysis.

So, we know the feature: 64-bits for Vegas. Now, what is the benefit? Well, I have an engineering degree, so I can guess that Vegas can address a larger memory space, and that there MIGHT be some performance improvements. But here's the real question: How MUCH of a performance improvement?

Not only does this incompetent press release not spell out any of the potential benefits, it does absolutely nothing to give us any sense of the magnitude of these murkily-described advantages. Will Vegas render any faster? If so, 5% faster? 25% faster? Twice as fast? At what point does this get interesting, and at what point do you start to care?

So, I have absolutely no idea what this is all about, and why I should care.

While I agree with johmeyer that this isn't a press release that's going to make people jump and down with glee, I can see where Sony's coming from.

Hell, if I were a Sony engineer and I had to deal with recoding Vegas to:
- deal with Vista
- deal with other Microsoft updates like dotNet 3
- move to a 10-bit architecture
- replace the VfW format,and
- add Blu-Ray
- all while maintaining the product's reputation for stability

Why the hell not go for broke and go to 64-bit, too? At least they'd be the first NLE to make the jump. Sounds like they're going to have to recode the whole thing from the ground up, anyway.
In for a penny, in for a pound.

By the way, not to excuse the marketing, but it's quite possible that Sony doesn't yet know what going to 64-bit will mean in terms of payoff. It's probably better to promise little and exceed expectations than promise too much and not deliver. (Ahem... Sony Walkman... PS3, anyone?)

I agree that it probably makes sense to have a 64-bit version at some point. But if I were project leader, I'd sure as heck make sure we did a LOT of benchmarking and tests before committing a huge percentage of the company's resources on a project like this. And, that benchmarking darn sure better have been completed before making this announcement.

With the results of those tests in hand, they should be able to give pretty explicit answers to my questions in the previous post. If the results are only marginally faster (20-40%) than existing 32-bit, then why do the project? If the performance improvement are mind-boggling (large integer multiples), then that should be part of the story during the announcement.

While under-promising and then over-delivering may sound good and ethical and wise, such an approach takes all pressure off the development team (gee, it doesn't look like we'll be able to hit that target after all, but no worries, we didn't tell anyone outside the company that we could). In addition, if that's really what you intend to do, THEN WHY ANNOUNCE IT AT ALL? What is the point of an announcement that is so watered down and so conservative (if that is why they did it this way), that it fails to excite anyone?

It's like announcing that your next release will be supporting "double exponential rendering." I just made up that phrase, but assuming that it really meant something, what good would it do to announce it, without describing its benefits in some quantifiable way?

Back to my re-phrasing of the topic: What is in it for me? Does this announcement begin to build up that "desire to own" feeling, where I can't wait until the product is available? Great marketing can build anticipation and can sometimes forestall purchases of competitive products. All this announcement does is cause everyone to utter, in unison:

"Huh?"

Agreed. The known advantage is more memory is available. Vegas itself will be able to use more than 2 GB, and the OS will be able to offer more than 3.12 GB, which is the MS fixed limit to Vista32.

Anything beyond that would need to be demonstrated, of course.

The assumed advantage is that it puts Vegas into a realm that it can grow in, and that it gives Madison programmers an opportunity to rewrite things (and get the budget allocated to do so).

It also puts the next release in line with some hardware developements, like wider adoption of PCI express, more PCI express lanes on a motherboard, hypertransport 3.0, PCIe 2.0, and maybe GPU coprocessing.

What it doesn't address is things that people may need between now and then, like HD authoring to BD or HDDVD,. and a more Vista-friendly version of Vegas. (Yes, not everyone is interested in Vista but those that have it need the media manager updated)

Rob Mack

John, you're making a huge leap when you say that since you don't care then nobody else will care either. I doubt that you can really speak for everybody.

However, I agree announcing a 64-bit developement project isn't instantly inspiring. Nor would it stop people who want to jump ship from jumping. But, given that they're saying that V8 is still many months away, I don't know how much they can say about plans. At this point it's a little tease.

If this were Adobe announcing this you'd hear a sigh of relief at NAB even in Monterey. They are in serious memory troubles at the higher end of their user base.

Rob Mack

vegas users arent all computer geeks, many (me) have heard the terms 64-bit ,32-bit ,know there are operating systems that have the 64bit in the title, know some cpu have 64 bit in the title,, but thats about it,, I agree with John , whats in it for me, hell he is an engineer and i dont even think i spelled engineer correctly

Plugins will be the worst factor: Quicktime64? Boris64? Mainconcept64? Flash64? Otherwise, I can finally move over to Vista64 permanently. Dual boot at the moment with XP Pro SP2 - testing out the WOW! at the moment.

John, you're making a huge leap when you say that since you don't care then nobody else will care either.

Well, that's true, but if they care, but don't know why, then they are idiots.

As for addressing more memory, the operative, engineering phrase is "directly address" more memory. Believe me, I know a LOT about this. As a few on this forum know, our old product, Ventura Publisher, was able to do some pretty neat things on a 16-bit computer architecture that was hamstrung by the x86 architecture to only addressing 640 kbytes directly. Various memory enhancements (remember EMS memory?) let us "map" memory into that space so that the program could take advantage of more memory for larger programs. However, this technique did not help much for managing large data objects, like color photos, that were tens of megabytes (now hundreds).

So, back to the benefits. One of the things that constantly is requested in these forums is greater color bit depth. I suspect that one reason this has not been forthcoming in the existing V7 release may be the memory address issue. If, therefore, a 64-bit implementation would provide this benefit, then that sure as heck ought to be in the announcement somewhere. Maybe it was, and I missed it.

John,

I certainly agree with your central point. I think the marketing for Vegas has been pretty spotty. When it was Sonic Foundry, that might have been excusable, since they were they probably didn't have the budget for big-time advertising. But now that they're with Sony, I'm surprised we haven't seen a coordinated marketing campaign.

Look at the buzz another division of Sony has created with the XDCAM eX camera. And that doesn't even exist yet.

64bit is a position for the future which in many other threads there is a claim there is no future for Sony Vegas. Having spent most of my life managing multi million dollar projects and 2 multi million dollar business transformations I can say a couple of things with confidence. Number 1 is that once you have a vision of the future you have to plan for that and make it a priority. With a limited number of resources you maintain what you have and concentrate on the new. You would see fewer updates to the legacy Vegas with all major work driving to the new. I would suspect that 10bit is a drive for the new and not the old. Title changes, if any, might be similar to Graffiti in the new with the old left as is. I understand that perfectly. I am happy with Vegas and I have confidence in my original selection of Vegas. I could be wrong but I prefer my speculation to doom and gloom.

Harold