Neither.

I wouldn't purchase a product that has a proprietary rights management (DRM) method.

I like to use the Wal Mart music download service. They are reasonably priced and have fairly reasonable license scheme for their WMA files (10 CD burns, unlimited portable sync's) and works well within Windows Media player. But, even though the files they provide are DRM WMA files, M$ has decided to ONLY allow WMA files downloaded from their Zune site to work with the Zune player, so the ~100 hours of music I have will not play on the Zune player.

In my case, I have 100's of song's already purchased from the Wal Mart music site and M$ is, in effect, telling me that they understand that I have licensed WMA music, but you can't use our Zune player to listen to 'em -- you'll have to purchase another license from us to listen to them.

Of course, if you're interested in the video capabilities, then you will narrow your choices quite a bit. But ,I use a Creative Zen Vision:M 30GB MP3 Video Player (~$220), and it has very intuitive interface, plays all my content and has video playback (as of yet, I don't use it much though)

My 2 cents...

Jim

I'm not a fan of apple nor M$...

But I'd go with the Zune or the creative...no I-crap.

The Zune is newer, faster file access, better looking vid, bigger screen, wireless access with other Zune, and will only get better as updates roll in (and it's already better than icrap as is).

More importantly, the sound quality of all Icrap gear is sub-par (and itunes is a cluster-f**k, only a fool admits to liking how itunes works). Don't be snowed by the ads and cute little white look.

I don't hate Mac, but I've had enough experience to know that Icrap hardware are for fools buying a name. M$ delivered a better option now with Zune.
You can circumvent any drm issues easily.

I think the creative would be a close 2nd choice too, heck maybe a tie for first even (although I'm not a fan of "creative" overall).
Video on the Zune surpasses the Zen in many ways, but Zen still isn't a bad choice. I didn't expect it but the sound quality of the Zune is the better of all three (beating the Zen by a smidge..and yet making Icrap a moot point)

good luck

personally, if it were me, i'd go to wallyworld, target, circuit city, etc. & find one that accepts SD memory cards & you just need the mp3's on the SD memory, no required transfer. simple, don't need anything specific and upgradeable.

You can circumvent any drm issues easily.

How would it be easy to get around the DRM issue?

Jim

Regardless of how you store / transfer the music files, there are still the DRM issues to consider. The Wally World downloaded WMA music files are not compatiable with the Zune (or the iPod) but the Zen products are more than happy to play them...

Jim

jaydeeee,

Your prejudice is surpassed only by your ignorance.

The sound quality you get with iPods, Zens , Zunes, etc. are limited primarily by the earphones you use.

They all ship with basic earphones that are OK for most people, but lots of improvement is available with third party gear that will fit any brand of player.

Even audiophiles use iPods, with special pocket size D/As and ultra headphones of course.

Apple's format sounds vastly better than MP3 for the same bit rate, and many think that even if you jack up the MP3 bit rate 50% higher, it still doesn't sound as good as Apple's basic encoding.

And if you don't like that, you can store your music in uncompressed wav format.

The more than 6,000 iPod accessories from leading manufacturers have also been seen as a great convenience for buyers.

There are pros and cons with every choice, but don't make it so black and white, because it isn't.

Thanks for the insights.

I have 1000's of songs already encoded to Mp3 and enjoy using the Walmart downloads. I do a little mobile DJ work on the side and am looking for a way to carry an emergency backup.

It sounds like the Zen approach would make more sense.

The wife is itching to buy me Christmas present, so I hope she can find one in stock tomorrow!

Thanks!

fortunately, there's utilities like www.tunebite.com that de-protect the DRM encoded mp3s.

I wouldn't want to use any media player that only plays proprietary-format audio/video files.

ken

creative zen vision M all the way! i have the zvm60 GB and love it!
check out this link!

http://dapreview.net/zune_vs_ipod_vs_zvm.html


pj

The Zen is cool.

Just for the avoidance of confusion: iPods play MP3 files without conversion (as is mentioned in the deep comparison but often missed).

This means users can buy DRM-free MP3 music from www.emusic.com etc.

I also have another preference for buying anything "classical" (in any music genre): I buy a new or used CD and slurp it into iTunes in a few minutes. That gives me a solid backup, at whatever sound quality I want, with no DRM hassle.

Even the AAC music I buy occasionally from the iTunes store, well, I can share that permanently with five other players. Try that with Zune or any other DRM-controlled player!

>>>jaydeeee,

Your prejudice is surpassed only by your ignorance.<<<

Lemme guess...
ipod owner (multiple times).

Earphones? Heh, ...Bull-shit. Keep telling yourself that.
Look into the disc access times, features and future of the creative or zune, itunes, etc... and the decision is even easier - no more icrap for anyone I know.

But enjoy what you want and happy holidays just the same (seriously)

If you want a green Christmas perhaps best to avoid anything Apple, read what Greenpeace think of them here.

Bob.

I got an 80GB Ipod for my bday. I have imported 80% of my cds @ 224 kbps mp3 with the apple mp3 encoder. I have ~3200 songs, photos, video, contacts, podcasts. I have A/B toggled the original ripped cds with the mp3's using Sony Vegas and Mackie HR824 speakers. By and large I can not tell the difference in sound quality. My music CD's are stored away and I have access to music based on artist, genre, ratings, playlist, etc. I get much more out of my music since I am not physically handling the cd's. I don't hate iTunes as much as I did and the search function works pretty good, I rarely buy music from iTunes, so DRM is not an issue. If I do, worst case you burn a CD and then re rip it.

Last night I was at a party of 30 year olds and there was 6 or so Ipods (and mine) laying around the docking stereo, we would swap out Ipods and play each others playlists.

MS agreed to pay Universal a percentage of each Zune sold, not sure what that means. Also its a first gen product. I would hold off on a Zune.

Music was secondary to me in deciding on the iPod or the Zune. My need was for a way to demo my video products and the iPod won for it's size and brand recognition.

I am at a business mixer and someone asks me what I do - and out comes the video iPod.

No I just have to get expert at making iPod video from Vegas.....

Steve M.

I have an 80 gig IPOD and like it, I use the itunes software in limited uses also use rhapsody and have it sync'd with that.
What would really get me reve'd up would be the release of the Bella Catapult so I could direct to disc record HDV w it.
it was supposed to be out in late 2006 , wonder if they are running into perf issues .....

jaydeeee,

I'm a first-time iPod owner, caused by a need to monitor what I produce for the 60 million customer iPod owner market.

I don't spend enough time away currently to need a pocket music player of any kind, and I have no stock in any brand whatsoever.

When people ask me for recommendations, I don't issue simplistic edicts to go for this one or that one. I ask what their needs are and make suggestions based on that.

So earphones don't matter? If you don't notice any quality difference between earphones, why worry about what player the sound is coming from?

Oh, the sound quality depends on the disc access time. Or is there some other hidden benefit of having a shorted (or longer?) disc access time?

There is no question Creative will survive, they have enough good products.

Zune on the other hand is a big question mark. Can Microsoft sustain interest in this big and clumsy Toshiba player? That is something I would not bet on at all. I don't think they understand the market at all, and my guess is that they will withdraw after three years of bloodletting.

It's just a guess, but it's analogous to Disney recently handing over 313 Disney stores in the U.S. and Canada to retailer The Children's Place for effectively nothing, because Disney found they didn't understand the business of store retailing.

A bigger issue might be how well any dedicated portable music player will fare in the future. Apple are selling less than $10 worth of downloads per iPod sale, the total value of download sales are worth less the 5% of sales to the recording industry and growth of sales are levelling out.
At the same time more mobile phones are incorporating mp3 and wma playback capability. This does seem one piece of convergent tech that should be popular, Sony are marketing this capablility in their latest phones pretty hard down here.
I have some reservations about the value of portable video playback capability. There's many activities that you can pursue while listening but the range is reduced when you have to watch.

As to the audio quality of the iPods, well as i don't own any such device I can't comment on whether it's solely the earphones or not but pretty well every review I've read of every device other than an iPod says "sounds better than an iPod". If it is solely due to the poor quality earphones that Apple supply that does seem a pretty dim marketing stratergy on their part.

Bob.

If you're thinking of the Forrester report, that has been thoroughly discredited as based on statistically invalid data. Nobody except Apple knows their download revenues.

It is also not much relevant to their profit model, they have many spigots.

Mobile phones sure, and Apple's iPhone reputedly is already being manufactured by the millions for an imminent release. I don't know if anybody cares all that much what the digital music format is, other than that MP3 needs 50% larger media to store the same amount of music compared to using WMA or AAC (Apple's format).

I have seen little kids walking down the street here holding a parent's hand while the other hand was holding a video mobile phone or iPod showing a kid's cartoon while Xmas shopping. Sad I think...

When a review says "sounds better than an iPod," I wonder which of the 25 or so very different models they were referring to? Some models did have really sucky sound, while others sound very good, especially pretty much all later generations.

They all can be improved with better earphones. Apple is a quirky company in many ways, but they understand just as well as their competition that initial affordability is vital, after that many upgrades are possible.

If you buy the $79 model, don't expect $79 earphones. What you get aren't "poor quality earphones," just "good quality" as opposed to "eargasm."

If you buy the $350 model, don't expect $79 earphones either. That would be out of place. Just pick the model that fits your needs and then look for earphones that fit your ears and the type of music you listen to (don't forget that part, there is no one-fits-all here).

Ok, I think the picture is clear here...you never had a Zune in hand to even compare. I'm sorry but it's obvious.

>>I'm a first-time iPod owner, caused by a need to monitor what I produce for the 60 million customer iPod owner market.<<

It's understandable the greater market share might snow some into the standard i-name. This does not equate into it being the better product.
I'm sorry, but you're kidding yourself there.

>>I don't spend enough time away currently to need a pocket music player of any kind, and I have no stock in any brand whatsoever.<<

Who the hell does? It's a portable media player - a toy. A fun one at that which enables many to clean up their cabs/rooms of tons of cd's. However out of the prods avail - the Zune and Zen smoke icrap in too many ways to discerning buyers.
Don't worry though, the i-name is set and you'll always have the kids/moms fo the world buying the i-names. The world is big enough for all players I think.


>>When people ask me for recommendations, I don't issue simplistic edicts to go for this one or that one. I ask what their needs are and make suggestions based on that.<<

Yes you do (see "market share").
But I too could care less about apple vs. M$ (or whoever) ...but I do know a better product when I see it side by side WITH MY OWN EYES AND EARS...add-in: especially WHEN IT COMES TO TALKING TO TRUSTED TECHS AND TESTERS WHO HANDLE THESE PLAYERS/TOYS EVERY DAY.
The specs and features are better with Zen and Zune over the ipod players - but I do understand people who want the 80 gig ipod if they have a lot to put on. Name recognition is also understood - ipod is almost used as a general term for all media players now.
Me being a discerning buyer - I can care less about "excessories" ;)P - If I cared, all I need are the specific features and know I can charge and go and that my battery life is going to last longer.

Again - since you insist on missing my exact listing of better zune features over icrap, here's an extended listing of more:

- faster file access (way faster)
- better looking video (biggie in my book I guess. icrap vid pales in comparison - any vid, any enc rate). Or ...if your glued to the i-name, wait for the full view ipod coming soon (but it ain't gonna be cheap nor as comfortably small as all the players are).
- bigger screen (come on, face it...it's a biggie to discerning buyers)...
which also offers landscape view.
- wireless access with other Zune (sharing is a snap) - more applicable as time goes on though IMO.
I believe you'll be seeing more wi-fi uses/features in upcoming zune games you can download, but I havn't researched the games on lil toys like this.
- sync via wi-fi
- tactile control
- better sound and better sound enhancment features (Zen has better sound as well over icrap).
- not just stuck with itunes (horrid,horrid itunes)
- built in radio without added accessory, RDS capable (geez, great reception/range, I was shocked)
- comparable battery life to all these gadgets
- screen material is less prone to easy "scratching" then the ipod or Zen
- charges simply via usb
- Zune can be used to store and transfer various file formats such as zip files, pdf files and word documents. No Zune hardware or software changes are required at all.
- already seeing routes to larger storage - even now www.ipodmods will upgrade your 30 gig to 40 or 80gig.
- connects easily with xbox360 owners out there (and mediacenter users).
- Zune software can import audio files in unprotected .WMA, MP3, AAC; photos in JPEG; and videos in .WMV, MPEG-4, H.264.
- firmware EASILY updatable
- costs a bit less than the ipod of similar storage size
- can do custom backgrounds
- more elegant looking UI than icrap
- zune a/v cable is kinda neato
- For those who buy via services offered: With iTunes, if you want to buy music, it will cost you .99 cents per song, or you can purchase by the album. With Zune, you’ll be able to choose from buying songs individually, or purchasing an “all-you-can-eat” subscription, allowing you to listen to as much music as you want.
But let's face it - most people rip their own music/vids.

some more specs (aud/vid): http://www.zune.net/en-us/meetzune/device.htm

It's clear to me you know nothing about the Zune (or prob even the Zen, irivers, archos, etc.) - I suggest you DO SOME RESEARCH yourself before even chiming in. I'm sorry but them's the facts. I understand if you need the saftey of the i-name and it's current marketshare to feel at ease, but you can't primp on in and dodge the pros the Zune/zen offers and hope that any DISCERNING buyer will take you seriously.

And as for "earphones" being the root of quality - the word "bullsh*t" stands firm. You remember the Archos players? Are you going to say the earphones were the only reason for audio quality?
Same applies for all these media players - i invite you to research a little better before jumping in with argument.


>>>So earphones don't matter? If you don't notice any quality difference between earphones, why worry about what player the sound is coming from?<<<

Who in the hell said earphones don't matter? I said the audio quality of the Zune and Zen surpass the icrap (so far). Leave earphones and the excuses that come with it out of it.
*and don't forget to re-read the MORE IMPORTANT aspect - the feature list of Zune (and Zen too).

>>>Oh, the sound quality depends on the disc access time. Or is there some other hidden benefit of having a shorted (or longer?) disc access time?<<

Wow. That's uncalled for...
again, who said the access time affects the sound? Not me. Please re-read and comprehend this time. The disc access of the Zune smokes the icrap however (since you bring it up again).

>>There is no question Creative will survive, they have enough good products.<<

Dang skippy - they'll survive just fine. Who said they wouldn't again?
I'd buy a Zen or Zune over icrap in a heartbeat if I cared enough about this crap.
I like the i-rivers and archos players as well (over icrap).

>>>Zune on the other hand is a big question mark. Can Microsoft sustain interest in this big and clumsy Toshiba player? That is something I would not bet on at all. I don't think they understand the market at all, and my guess is that they will withdraw after three years of bloodletting.<<<

I doubt it. And it isn't big and clunky, the Zen or the Zune.
Zune and Zen are light, look good and are of quality build in many an opinion. People who are discerning don't buy a media toy based on anything but features, but average shmoes will go with the name (i-name).

>>>It's just a guess, but it's analogous to Disney recently handing over 313 Disney stores in the U.S. and Canada to retailer The Children's Place for effectively nothing, because Disney found they didn't understand the business of store retailing.<<<

What does this have to do wi.....
Not even going to respond to this, it's not even entertaining or interesting enough to read twice.

Summary:
discerning buyers will more likely choose the Zen or Zune right now, your average kids/moms and die-hard MAC users will still more likely go i-name.
There's room in this big world for even more competition, so relax - it's a media toy. A gadget (all of them).
Quit the bullsh*t arguing on this one - you won't "win" (see feature list).

Personally? I like Rhapsody (and it's pricing) better than all out of the services. If I were to ever care about these gadgets and buy one day, i might choose one of the creative Zen models (even though I've given more info on this Zune. I'm betting you'll soon see rhapsody becoming accessible on nearly all players soon based on Real's current survival retructuring.

That said and more importantly (again) enjoy whatever brand you like - it's your choice and perogative. Happy holidays and play with your toys.

:)P

I'm hardly kidding myself as a producer, the iPod market is vastly larger.

I have listened to many different portable players over the years (and owned many when I traveled a lot), because I have a great interest in music, both as a listener and as a regular performer (at least once monthly in public). After spending more than 30 years in music and audio, my ears are fairly well developed.

I noted on the Zune that any music you share can only be played three times over three days, then it disappears..

iPods don't need any hacks to store any kind of file, I use mine all the time to store DV footage I receive from other people to do post on.

I must have gotten dense from all the Xmas food, because I still don't understand what you are referring to with the disc access time?

I quite like the iRivers and have recommended them here in the past. The Zen is super nice, and I recently said as much.

Am I to understand you use RealPlayer on your PC(s)? You're more brave than I am.

I still think the Zune is very clunky and outright ugly. I see no value in their idea of temporary wireless "sharing" (their Wi-Fi can't access anything else), and I don't think MS understands this business at all. (in the same way Disney didn't understand retail stores and had to bail, in spite of all their resources).

Merry Christmas to All!

No matter what was in your stocking. Even a Zune! (OK, that was bad. Mea culpa :O)

You're right in that there is no need to take this so seriously!

Bjorn

>>I'm hardly kidding myself as a producer, the iPod market is vastly larger.<<

Master of DUH.

>>I have listened to many different portable players over the years (and owned many when I traveled a lot), because I have a great interest in music, both as a listener and as a regular performer (at least once monthly in public). After spending more than 30 years in music and audio, my ears are fairly well developed.<<

Alright but still...this says nothing - nor means nothing other than your personal preference and choice.
Facts are, the Zune offers more than icrap in features (you don't need to over-excess-orise either). Admit it - you're dipped in ipod dreams at the moment.
I understand. Allow time to tell b4 speaking is the smart rule of thumb (and re-read the FEATURE comparison)..

>>I noted on the Zune that any music you share can only be played three times over three days, then it disappears..<<<

Disappears...Lol. Glad you noted this...now the fact is - yer wrong.

>>iPods don't need any hacks to store any kind of file, I use mine all the time to store DV footage I receive from other people to do post on.<<

Here's hoping for ANY kind of hack at this point to get me into an ibill.

>>I must have gotten dense from all the Xmas food, because I still don't understand what you are referring to with the disc access time?<<

You know what HD access time is, right? We can't continue this debate if that answer is no. You must go directly to jail - and not collect $239.00 in i-dollars.

>>I quite like the iRivers and have recommended them here in the past. The Zen is super nice, and I recently said as much.<<

That makes many of us.

>>>Am I to understand you use RealPlayer on your PC(s)? You're more brave than I am.<<<

And here comes headscratcher #...oh, what # are we on now?
And now you inject me using realplayer. Good grief.
Rhapsody does not equal realplayer. Stop speaking before you know anything, try it first..then reply.

>>>I still think the Zune is very clunky and outright ugly. I see no value in their idea of temporary wireless "sharing" (their Wi-Fi can't access anything else), and I don't think MS understands this business at all. (in the same way Disney didn't understand retail stores and had to bail, in spite of all their resources).<<<

And it all boils down to course's personal opinion...so he spouts off about the Zune, having skipped the items that affect the buyers choice most - the features. Just put a cap on the M$ hatred for a spell and LOOK AT THE FEATURE COMPARISONS. It's enough to make a decision (no icrap - more likely yes on Zen's or Zune today)
Hey, it's nobody's fault but your own you chose the ibrain. Don't get mad at us now. All the guy was asking for were the facts on the toys at hand. He has those now.
I'm not sure a hopeful hoorah for ipod again, or common slam on M$ justifies a proper a/b comparison for the guy, do you?

Merry Christmas to All!

>>No matter what was in your stocking. Even a Zune! (OK, that was bad. Mea culpa :O)<<

That was bad? How about overlooking all the details earlier? How about putting your feelings on apple vs. the world first in replying to the guy?...now THAT is bad.

It's settled then MichaelS - go get a record player and get some old school in yer a*s.
It still is the best way to listen to music. Big covers are fun, read the album info and about the session/artist, pulling out the vinyl is a blast, makes you work a bit for it...making you listen to more than you would if you had an icry (or any contraption).

>>You're right in that there is no need to take this so seriously!

Bjorn<<

Of course, these are stupid little gadgets that will come and go.
And M$ and i-sh*t aren't worth an argument of any magnitude. Screw them both.
But it's xmas and toys are fun sometimes, and the Zune is better than icrap.
heheh ;)P

"Of course, these are stupid little gadgets that will come and go.
And M$ and i-sh*t aren't worth an argument of any magnitude. Screw them both.
But it's xmas and toys are fun sometimes."

----------------------

You seem to be missing one key point that I and at least one other poster made.

I have clients asking for their video on an iPod. So, I buy an iPod to make sure that I am delivering a level of quality that I want my name on.

The iPod is just another tool in my shop. If I had clients asking for their video on a Zune, Zen Zed or any other portable device, that's what I would have purchased. But no one is - just the iPod.

Personally, I'll probably never use it for music and the only video I'll put on it are my demos and a movie to watch inflight.

Steve M.