Comments

TLF wrote on 10/24/2006, 12:20 AM
Depends on the film.

Will there be nothing on the screen that creates a sound (other than actors talking)?

The sound should, in my opinion, follow the action. So, if a car passes from left to right on the screen, I expect to hear it approaching from the front left, to the centre, to the front right.

If something is approaching from behing, I'd expect to hear it in the rear speakers, and then pass to the front speakers.

Worley.
newmediarules wrote on 10/24/2006, 2:52 AM
You're basically saying, "Let the action dictate." There's not reason to "force" surround sound when it's not there.

It's okay to have a narrative voice at the front center, right? Not necessarily "cooler" or more "surround" to place it in the center of the specturm, right?
AlistairLock wrote on 10/24/2006, 3:28 AM
I notice you say:
"CENTER (REAR) = more sound effects"

Dialogue is usually confined to the centre front speaker, (and then add ambient reverb to the front L-R speakers, plus maybe very muted mono reverb to centre).

If you need to create specific movement when an actor leaves or enters the screen you can then pan them off into the front L-R speakers, or indeed the rears depending on their actions

Ambient sound is usually found in the front L-R speakers, and then extra information in the rear. Be careful that sound in the rear is not distracting unless it becomes something that your on-screen actors/talent react to.

Chienworks wrote on 10/24/2006, 3:31 AM
Also, there is no center rear channel. The center channel is in front.
dannyoneill wrote on 10/24/2006, 5:50 AM
I have my surround project setup like this

http://img168.imageshack.us/my.php?image=projectpankw7.jpg

Dont forget you can actually disable speakers by clicking on them, most people just move the pan cursor around but you need to really disable the other speakers.

I then have the same setup twice, once for music with Noise gate plugin off and once for sounds from the camera with noise gate enabled to remove any rubbish and camera noise.
TheHappyFriar wrote on 10/24/2006, 5:58 AM
i've always hated when the dialog is front center only. IT never made any sence. I always got more "feeling" from movies that spread things out a little. Not all movies do this, but does it really make sence that someone on the far left talks out of the same speaker as someone on the far right?
DJPadre wrote on 10/24/2006, 6:22 AM
LEFT/RIGHT (FRONT) = Music/sfx/dialogue bleed if subject is off screen or moving to centre

LEFT/RIGHT (REAR) = sfx/music bleed of mid to high frequencies, add some reverb for fatness..
rear centre is ProLogic2 or DD EX, and can only be accessed via metadata though EX encoding. You cannot physically allocate the centre rear channel, UNLESS your running DD TrueHD of which vegas doesnt do anyway

CENTER = dialogue only, music @ -18 db or -12db depending on your mix configuraion (ie constant power, film etc etc)
<placement mixdown from FL FR> SFX only for centred placement of visual effect

LFE = Music/dialogue and sfx. In vegas I recomend duplicating the dialogue track and allocaitng the new one to LFE, and again duplicaiting FL and FR tracks to a new track, and the allocating those. and finally, your effects track.. 3 LFE tracks in total. 1 for dialogue, and one for music, and one for effects. this allows individual track EQ and filter tweaks without affecting other elements. Be aware of freq passes on the same channel as this could cause phasing of said frequencies

go to Dolby.com for more information
Stuart Robinson wrote on 10/24/2006, 9:08 AM
I've worked with THX and written extensively about Dolby and movie sound technologies so to add to the above:

The centre should carry the sound of everything you see on screen, with stereo separation carried by the front L/R pair. It is not a "dialogue only" channel and shouldn't be used that way, but it is important that the centre does carry all of the on-screen dialogue. This is in part due to the Haas precedence effect, which otherwise impacts viewers who are sitting off-centre.

Dolby Digital Surround EX and DTS ES both have a surround back channel, probably what you're referring to above, but in reproduction terms the loudspeakers to deliver that channel shouldn't be in the centre rear of the room, that brings about reversal effects, instead a stereo pair should be used.

http://www.dolby.com/ is indeed a good source of information.
newmediarules wrote on 10/24/2006, 11:33 AM
thx, but feel free to direct me to more info.

I was wondering if there was an ac3 demo somewhere on the Web. Anything? Something that could illustrate the standards as well as the possibilities?
fwtep wrote on 10/24/2006, 11:43 AM
There's a very very easy way to think of it. The audience should feel like they're standing there with the characters-- the audience is the camera.

Therefore, picture the sound as if you were actually standing there. Is something happening behind you (the camera)? Then that's where the sound should come from. Is someone calling you from off to the left? Then that's where the sound should come from. How much you want to exaggerate that or manipulate it is up to you; it's an artistic decision. Just don't forget that the camera is the audience, and try to picture what the would hear.
Stuart Robinson wrote on 10/24/2006, 11:50 AM
Take a look at:

http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/46_DDEncodingGuidelines.pdf

http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/L.mn.0002.5.1guide.pdf

More information than you'll ever need.
filmy wrote on 10/25/2006, 12:26 PM
As with everything film - there are no rules. Well, ok - there are but really it comes down to what feels best, or in this case what sounds good. Also a lot will depend on what the director, producers and studio wants.

In most cases the dialog in mono. Things like walla can be in stereo and tossed into the surrounds. Several peopl can't understand why dialog is mono and ceter channel only but unless you have actually sat and cut dialog it isn't somehting that makes sense. I did years of loaction sound recording and never recored in stereo -meaning anything dialog wise would have to be cut for stereo later if that is what the producers wanted to pay for. On the post side to cut every bit of dialog to match the screen would take forever, plus as muc as consumers think it would make sense to hear dialog move reality is it would be more confusing. So I go to what I said about doing what feels right. So for th emost part dialog is mono but say someone yells offscreen and the actor looks to the left - it makes sens to place the off screen dialog in the left channel. But say someone is behind th eperson on screen - "reality" says to place that voice in the surrounds - but looking at the screen and editing might dictate something else. Close up of the person looking over his shoulder, behind them, would be behind the character but not behind the viewer - behind the on screen character would actually be in the center for the viewer. So for the most part dialog is centered, but always only cventer channel.

As for other items - effects I normally do in stereo or mono, depending on the effect, and toss in some items in the surrounds. Like a gun battel I will cut in hard effects first and mostly they will match on screen direction, and than layer in other effects that can come from off screen or in the surrounds. Ambience I will do in stereo and surround in needed. Music is iffy - if it is mixed in suyrround to start it is fine but most of the time it isn't. So where it is placed it up to what is being said to me. Some people place all music in the surrounds only. I don't like that but in the early days of surround it was sort of standard. I remember one film I cut was for stereo and at the end the producers decided to mix in surround. Mostly the music was placed there. One effect that had several elements was placed in the surrounds - I will always remember sitting there suprvising the mix and the mixer said "You want tp put this in the surrounds?" i said "um..sure." and when the producers came in to watch the roughs that part came on on one of them said "I am glad to hear we are putting somehting in the surrounds. We are paying good money for the encoding gear."

The bottom line is really what the scene is. Too many people put their two cents in and at times you get things that really don't fit. Surorund is sort of new toy that people will play with, and toss in effects that don't really fit just because they have the channels to do it. To me sound should compliment the picture, just like a really good special effect. It should be part of the overall image and not "just because". if it is really good you don't even notice. Soem good surrond effects that stick out in my mind are logical in a sense - for example when Woodstock was remixed and played at the Cinerama Dome in Hollywood I loved that they placed the stage anouncments in the surrounds. Actually if want a pretty good "lesson" get the "new" DVD of Apocalypse Now as it has some special features on the whole surround mix. It is great because at the time there really wasn't a thing as "surround" as we know it now so they were creating it as they went along. If you don't want to spend the money on the DVD you can read a lot of great artilce and interviews at Filmsound.orgs' Walter Murch archives.

EDIT: Oh, the LFE channel. Low end effects and music. IMO Dialog normally doesn't want go that low. Any thing lower lower than 80 in dialog is not a good thing, unless you are going for effect. I tend to cut my dialog between 30 and 40 at the low side so there is not much in the way of low end to toss into the subs.