Appreciation for products

Sijon wrote on 9/15/2006, 10:00 AM
After looking over the Vegas audio forum the last few days I'm rather appalled and embarassed for the lack of appreciation and badgering shown SONY programmers.

I started recording to computer in 1991 and have been with Sound Forge and its derivatives from the beginning. I have been awed watching the evolution that has enabled me to do away with all hardware except converters and power amplifiers. I'm astounded at the capabilities I have, for very little money, as compared to when I began in this business in the 1960's. I have at my fingertips every feature I can imagine. That has enabled an uninterrupted workflow from recording a symphony orchestra or even some honky "band" to mastering to manufacturing a finished product right here - printing, duplicating, packaging and shipping. That process used to take weeks or even several months, with lots of frustration, and is now accomplished in a week or less.

I know a little about coding and when a coded project reaches even 500 lines a change can have huge ramifications. I assure you the Sound Forge family has thousands of lines of code! Be careful of petty changes you may request! I remember when Sound Forge introduced the scrolling window. I spent some hours just watching and marveling at the coding behind that as well as the idea.

So, thanks guys, for stable products that are innovative and set the standard. From things as useful as the M/S decoder to the incredible "region" naming system that allows me to enter the info once, carries through as CD-text, which is then exportable to my database of all pieces, composers, etc., I can't think of anything I can't do and do well.

And I'm very thankful!

Comments

randygo wrote on 9/15/2006, 1:32 PM

I don't think any of the audio guys have a problem with any of the Sony programmers. They are doing some incredible things and are always helpful in this forum.

The main gripe is with the direction that Vegas has taken with respect to audio over the last few years - these are management decisions.

So much badwill has been generated over the last two releases it seems that most audio users have abandoned Vegas for other products or are soon planning to do so.

Its very sad because we all LOVED Vegas so much. Fortunately, the spirit lives on in Reaper, which is picking up where Vegas left off!

Cheers,

Randy

drbam wrote on 9/15/2006, 2:55 PM
"So, thanks guys, for stable products that are innovative and set the standard."

Well, setting a standard and staying current with today's standard are two entirely different things. I agree that Sonic Foundry set some standards a few years ago but sadly that is not the current state of affairs.
Vegas - The Big Gamble wrote on 9/15/2006, 7:49 PM
It's great to get this perspective from someone with a background that stretches back to that era of innovation which seems so far removed from how we do everything now and yet still influences our production techniques!

When I learned to edit tape and bounce multi-track recordings I didn't realise they would be skills I would stop using within a short time - although both helped me understand NLEs. I marvelled at the early systems with their own O/Ss & custom interfaces while Windows was struggling to do MIDI in time, or audio at all!

So I was totally flabbergasted when I first used Sound Forge and then Vegas. I quickly felt at home thanks to the "feel" of the app which plays + visually represents the audio so solidly & smoothly - for me it gave an instant sensation of working with something "real"!

I agree there has been fantastic progress, but whilst it is refreshing to see your wholly positive comment I must say I felt like it could have been written in the Sonic Foundry days!

All around we see rapid developments - companies overtaking each other in cutting-edge functionality, innovative workflow features, file format support, UI protocols, higher performance and lower latency (right down to direct monitoring!). Features elsewhere that impress me now in the way that Vegas did years ago.

Naturally users today are pushing for technical improvements and driving forward the industry and competition as they always have done. Had there been internet forums back in the '60s then I am guessing they would have been full of the same kinds of queries, comments & rants about the gear of the day.

Of course people come to these product forums to complain about problems they are having. The modern corporate world doesn't answer the phone very quickly (or at all sometimes!) and so we are inclined to sound off and ask others for empathy and a possible resolution in a community like this.

There are the constant requests for new features we have seen elsewhere and rants if the software we use appears to be falling behind - but then at least the manufacturer has some idea of the demand without customers just going off and buying another product.

There is pressure on the application maker just as there is on the application user. We can do so much more now than ever before, but that just means more is expected of us too. Clients want things faster, without compromising standards and they expect us to make changes that would have been impossible in the past. We have to keep up with our own competitiors too so we need the best tools available.

New products are appearing out of nowhere and quickly reaching feature levels of long-established products like Vegas. Sure it's easier if they're playing catch-up but one would think this would push Sony to introduce new audio functionality as a priority. Instead it's ever more clear that the emphasis has shifted to video.

For me this a source of great frustration. It's difficult to imagine a parallel but here goes. What if new models of your analog multitrack tape machine suddenly came with video editing functionality which you had no wish to use - with no option to get a new audio-only version to fix "bugs" or shortcomings of the old one? Then as time went on you saw a clear slowdown in development of audio features as compared to competitors' new products, which had kept their priorities with audio and copied a good number of the best features of your machine along the way?

Ask Sony what Vegas is and they'll tell you it's "the essential media toolset".

Ask most music shops about Vegas and they'll tell you it's a mainly a video tool. That's a bad feeling for audio users.

I asked a "Sony Center" in the UK what they recommend for video editing - I was told to try Adobe Premier. When I mentioned Vegas they said they had "heard of it". Sadder still in a way!

Although it may have been a great business idea to turn Vegas into a video NLE with powerful audio to create something distinct and durable, the original Vegas target market were of course the audio producers so I am not at all surprised that the forum is now littered with more moans than ever.

People asked for MIDI, Rewire, VSTis, tempo changes - and now it's all available in ACID Pro 6, but the audio editing & management side is simply poor in comparison to Vegas and I can't import my Vegas files.

Sony have the source code and the programming team - yet another company has developed a full DAW in less time than it took to turn Vegas 6 into 7, with more of the Vegas audio functionality than Sony's own ACID!

Just as in the music industry - "you're only as good as your latest release". The current debate is exactly that. Is Vegas where it should be today? Is there any good reason to upgrade from 6 to 7 as an audio only user?

In a nutshell - I just can't see why I would buy Vegas 7! That being the case I wonder how long will I continue to work with Vegas 6.

For me, now is just not the time to pat Sony on the back for the past achievements of a company they bought. I want to keep "up-to-date" but that may well mean buying a different company's product unless ACID 7 provides all audio functionality that Vegas 6 did + .veg support.

Sony refusal to comment or even outline plans is unhelpful and causes people to moan - because it means we don't know what's coming until we don't get it! Even talk of a transition from Vegas to ACID because the programmers have moved across caused an "i'm only speculating" caveat from a staff member.

If the priority for ACID 7 will be integration with Cinescore or American Idol XMC rather than keeping the previous Vegas audio customers happy with a proper step forward in functionality then the audio software catalogue is clearly moving from a professional to a consumer product range as I see it.
SHTUNOT wrote on 9/15/2006, 11:55 PM
1)Vegas still got acids audio engine and the Uad plugin fixes in 7...not much but something. Using 7 for audio should hall butt like version 3 did.

2)Video is where the money is at. Like it or not.Some people like the upgrade...some don't. Stop harping on the ones that don't because with every update for every app your going to have the same resoponse.

3)I asked a "Sony Center" in the UK what they recommend for video editing - I was told to try Adobe Premier. When I mentioned Vegas they said they had "heard of it". Sadder still in a way!---What you never run into a idiot salesman before??? Go to any guitar center/sam ash and ask them for a great/stable audio app and they'll say "cubase" 9/10 times. Is that really sad that they don't say sonar/samp/acid/trackion/live/reap/etc...???

4)Again...Does everyone here really think that the direction acid is going is downhill??? Just because you didn't get everything you want in "one" update???

5) It is lit easy for anyone to walk into the arena for audio and make the "all in one" kick ass app when everyone else has done the hard work already. Start from scratch with no where to go but up...No previous features/functions have to be made to conform to a new model of working...straight from scratch. Taking acid and making it into vegas is alot. If it were easy it would have been done already.

Not saying to stay quiet...definitely speak your mind on what you expect for acid 7. I'm with you with ALL your requests. We are getting there.

Ed.

Vegas - The Big Gamble wrote on 9/16/2006, 6:13 AM
Hey Ed.

I agree with pretty much everything you say - it's progress, but within this context my point is still that I don't think Sony are leading the way in audio like Sound Forge used to.

1) UAD fixes are a catchup
2) I'm a music producer so video is of no interest - none of the audio apps my colleagues use have turned into video editors (with audio functionality) - I want the priority for the app I use to be audio!
3) It's a *Sony* Center
4) ACID isn't going downhill - I didn't say it was, but to not be able to drag audio across tracks in an audio app in 2006 is frankly bizarre!
5) Vegas, Sound Forge and ACID both created their own paradigms and they do "kiss ass"! Always have done, but I just want a clear sign that there is still a focus on pro audio users and not just American Idol consumers & video editors.

Interesting debate though.
SHTUNOT wrote on 9/16/2006, 12:00 PM
3) It's a *Sony* Center---Like I said you've never run into a idiot salesman before??? ;) When I first got into recording I told the sales guy at sam ash what my needs are and he suggested...cubase 3...soundforge 4.5...acid 1...I was like what about vegas audio...He tells me that it doesn't do midi. I told him I don't care I don't need it. Well he talked my ear off untill I listened. I went through a year of crap with that thing. But I knew how to do a fresh install of my OS and how to tweak win 98se with my eyes closed!!!!

I completely understand point number 2 though. No doubt that when you have a business you want to know that your app is supported. Again all I can say is just look at each revision of acid...imho all the proof is there from upgrade 5 to 6...7 will be that and more. The foundation has been set. But don't think you shouldn't make your voice heard. Send them feature requests CONSTANTLY on what you expect as a minimum for a upgrade in features. Post them in the acid forums and be constructive about it.

The waiting game does suck though. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for mackie C4 support in 7. Mixing with a mouse should be optional in 2007 right???? I love my MCU though.

Ed.
rraud wrote on 9/16/2006, 1:48 PM
Don't hold your breath.
It is apparnent that SONY has no interest in any audio upgrades
Sijon wrote on 9/16/2006, 3:50 PM
Guess I'm so busy using the features available to me that I miss some of these finer points. I have a number of clients who think I work miracles as I often "fix" some aspect of their performance right before their eyes. The most frequent request is, "Can you fix that out of tune bassoon, oboe (or........)." I tell them some things are just not possible! Fire the bassoonist! Or, get him some better reeds.

If the complaint is about SONY management then it reaches all the way to the top. There will be many shakeups and spun off product lines. SONY has acknowledged that their tremendous innovation in the past has led to some smugness and the introduction of products that are the answer to questions no one is asking. Downsizing has already started. How that will play out in Wisconsin is, of course, unknown.

Just be aware that small companies are innovative, flexible and hungry. It's best to stay that way! As soon as you hire a business manager with an MBA from the current crop of business schools you buy into insanity. The focus goes to the bottom line and products and customers are necessary evils to get there. The small company focuses on customers and products and the bottom line takes care of itself. I've watched and been part of such endeavors for over 40 years now.

To be bought out by a large company is usually the kiss of death. A large organization has a bureaucracy so it's important to recall IMHOFF'S Law which states that "the organization of any bureaucracy is very much like a septic tank - the really big chunks rise to the top." Inevitably Sonic Foundry's acquisition by SONY will lead to some of what you are talking about. The SONY organization is fighting for its life and if they're smart and stop letting bean counters run the organization you'll see a leaner more innovative organization. That, of course, may or may not happen.

I believe Curtis's mistake was in hiring the CEO that sold to SONY (can't remember his name but it was lengthy) but that's now several years over the dam. To succeed you have to pick your niche, limit the size of your organization, and be satisfied with the income you generate. Our competitve spirit continually tempts us to wonder just how far we can go or how large we can grow it.