Size of Menu DVD Unexpectedly High

jkb242 wrote on 12/31/2005, 3:28 PM
I have two clips each just under 2GB. I have no background music importated for the opening menu but and only a simple picture as the menu background. Two simple buttons each linked to a small jpg file is the total project content. The DVD project has increased to 6.2 which naturally wil not fit on one single layer DVD. Why is so much overhead file size required by DVDA for this simple two-button 2 file DVD? Is it possible that that the requred space has been miscalculated by DVDA? Does this seem correct?

Could someone please assist? Is there anything I can do to reduce this overhead so the two clips will fit on one DVD. I do no want to use DVD shrink as that will require as much as a 35% reduction or shrinking of the current MPG's which could result in degradation of quality.

Comments

johnmeyer wrote on 12/31/2005, 4:13 PM
There have been a LOT of posts about similar problems. Just search on the word "size" and restrict the search to this forum, and only search the SUBJECT line.

Usual reasons:

The video has been assigned to a button;

The video has been assigned to the background;

The video has been used more than once in the project (which usually doesn't increase the project size), but in one use it has subtitles and in the other uses, it doesn't.

Usual troubleshooting (this takes less than a minute) is to start with a new project. Drag the two clips to the main menu. Stop and do nothing else. Look at the project size. Is it 6.2 GB? If yes, then perhaps there is something unusual about how the clips are encoded. If the size is around 4GB (which is what I think you'd expect), then there is something unusual about your project file.

If you find that this test gives you a project size of 4GB, you can email me the DAR file (they are usually quite small) or, alternatively, post it somewhere so I can download it. I've done this a few times before, and even without access to your media files, I can usually figure out what the problem is.

jkb242 wrote on 1/1/2006, 9:42 AM
jhonmeyer,

Thanks very much for this assistance.

I tried exactly what you stated with both files and then just one of them. Watching the disk space indicator, with both files in the main menu and no background video, the project size is again 6.2Gb. With one of the files it is 3.1Gb. The file sizes are again 1.95 Gb and 1.96Gb respectively.

I am unable to attach the DAR file here and I do not have your email address to which I can attach the file. How can I get this file to you.

Thanks again so very much for the offer to assist!!

bStro wrote on 1/1/2006, 11:01 AM
Within DVDA, go to File and then Optimize DVD, and tell us what you see. It will list all of the videos (including menus) in your project on the left, and next to that it will indicate whether their components will be re-encoded by DVDA or not. (There is a column for video and a column for audio.) A check mark means they are okay the way they are; a yellow diamond with an exclamation point means DVD intends to re-encode them. If the videos are long enough, the re-encoded file might just end up being much larger than they are now.

If the video column has checkmarks next to your movies (don't worry about the audio column so much, or about the menu item), then chances are DVDA is just overestimating the project size.

Rob
jkb242 wrote on 1/1/2006, 12:40 PM
Rob,

The two MPG files which are each smaller than 1.98 Gb are both showing a need to be re-rendered or encoded. The back ground vedio which I have since added to the project is also an MPG 2 of 10Mb. It too has to be re-encoded according to DVA3c. DVDA thinks it needs to recode everything. The total project size is now 6.3Gb with only the two video clips and one simple 30 second backgroud video(un-looped)

If I click on fit to disk, the bit rate drops to 2.1Mb/sec. I may as well make a VCD. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
ScottW wrote on 1/1/2006, 1:42 PM
How were the MPEG files created? Did you use one of the DVD Arch templates in Vegas, or one of the other templates? If you use a DVD Arch template, the MPEG's should not need to be re-encoded (well, except the menu video will almost always be re-encoded).

Another thing to be aware of, is that even if DVDA gets the size estimate wrong, you can still go ahead and build the project, then check the sizes of the resulting files to make sure they don't exceed 4.37GB - if they don't, then you're good to go ahead and burn.
jkb242 wrote on 1/1/2006, 3:09 PM
Assuming DVDA is completly confused, I prepared the project and somehow the project is still to large to fit on a DVD. The MPG files were created in Vegas so it should be completely generic to DVDA but almost without fail, DVDA always wants to re-code the files. I do not use DVDA presets for rendering in Vegas as I need more flexibility from the MPGs which will be used to make playable DVD ROM's on a PC without the rats teeth caused by interlacing of MPEG's that are needed for a playable DVD. DVDA is a beautiful product, bu Sony really needs to fix the file size issue and the low bit rate rendering when one selects "Fit to disk"/

Thank you for your input, I am hoping that it is possible to fix what seems to be a troblesome issue that should be well within the graps of DVDA's capability.
bStro wrote on 1/1/2006, 4:31 PM
DVDA always wants to re-code the files. I do not use DVDA presets for rendering in Vegas as I need ...

You should at least start with the DVD Architect Video Stream template in Vegas and then adjust the changes you need. Whatever settings you're using now when you render, at least one of them is leading the files not to be DVD compliant. Which is why DVDA wants to re-encode them. Which is probably why the files will be too big.

Try this: In DVDA, go to the Explorer tab and find one of the videos you're trying to add. Right click it and choose Properties. Copy the section title "Streams" and paste what's there into a message here.

Rob
jkb242 wrote on 1/1/2006, 5:14 PM
Thanks bstro,


Here is the stream info as you suggested straight from DVDA.

Both files will have the same settings:

Streams
Video: 00:42:17.000, 30.000 fps progressive, 720x480x32, MPEG-2
Audio: 00:42:17.016, 48,000 Hz, Stereo, MPEG Layer 2
bStro wrote on 1/1/2006, 5:46 PM
Yup. That'd do it. ;-)

In the DVD world, there's no such thing as a 30 fps progessive video. For NTSC discs, You can have 24 (more accurately, 23.976) fps progressive or 30 fps (more accurately, 29.970) fps interlaced. When DVDA sees that your your videos are 30 fps progressive, it has to re-encode them.

You can get the full scoop on acceptable video formats by going to DVDA's online help, choosing the Index tab, and typing "Before you get started".

Rob
jkb242 wrote on 1/1/2006, 6:25 PM
Rob,

True enough, I realize because I have used a native progressive format when I created the MPG 2 but this does not explain why the project file size is so myuch larger than the sum of the two clips. Can you help me understand why DVDA has increased the overall project size by approximately 35%? Surely there must be some workaround.

As I explained in one of the first threads, the MPEG 2 clips are also used to make DVD roms playable on a PC without the artifacts of rats teeth caused by interlaced video displayed on a PC. What could you suggest?

Much thanks for your continued input adn guideance.

ScottW wrote on 1/1/2006, 7:07 PM
Getting some better DVD player software for your PC.
jkb242 wrote on 1/1/2006, 7:09 PM
bStro,

One other supporting piece of information that supports the buldging file size in DVDA. Even if I use two clips each about 1.9Gb which are interlaced as DVDA would like to see, I stiil end up with a project that is close to 5.8Gb. There has got to be some way around DVDA adding up to 1Gb of overhead which is going to always be a problem. A key objective is to maximize disk usage.

The DVDA overhead results in a required disk count of twice what should be necessary to support the media content even when DVD gets the "Happy Meal" file spec it wants.

God in heaven there must be some answer here. Can you offer some suggestions or workarounds other then to lowering teh bit rate or reducing the already tight file size budget. I have trimed these clips to the minimum.
ScottW wrote on 1/1/2006, 7:19 PM
Quit screwing around with the MPEG settings. Use a DVDA template to render the MPEG files and seperatly render the audio as AC3 - if combined they really are as small as you indicate, and if you aren't leaving out critical information about other things you are doing to the project, then DVDA is probably simply over estimating the size of your final project. Go ahead and prepare the project (don't prepare/burn) and tell DVDA that it's OK that it's too large, then take a look at the sizes of all the files in the VIDEO_TS folder, if they are all together less than 4.37GB, you are good to go.

--Scott
jkb242 wrote on 1/1/2006, 8:55 PM
ScottW,

Thanks for the tips. All I have to work with is the MPEG files which have already been rendered. Are you saying that I should re-render the MPEG progressive format to a DVDA template? I certainly can do that but I wanted to avoid rendering a rendered MPG file to de-risk multiple rendering artifacts. I do not have the original files.

As I stated previously, the original MPEG file has to server two purposes and playback as a DVD ROM on a PC without the annoying interlace lines during motion is critical.

The file sizes are exactly as I have described and project size is still quite a bit over the DVD max size. (5.3Gb as previously reported with standard NTSC interlaced format) Given this, it just seems like there should be a workaround until Sony can fix DVDA. Last time I ignored DVDA's project size, it turns out that DVDA belived it self more than me and would not let the session contine since the project size was too larget to fit on a single DVD. There is no way to determine if the project is really too big of DVDA is on steriods until the last step. Perhaps another authoring program is the answer.

Much thanks for all comments!!
johnmeyer wrote on 1/2/2006, 12:37 AM
The right way -- I might say the only way -- to render video and audio in Vegas for use in DVD Architect is as follows:

1. Render the video. Use the NTSC DVD Architect template. Do NOT use the default template. Set the Average bitrate depending on the length of your project (use a bitrate calculator such as the one found ad dvdhelp.com). DO NOT change ANY other settings for the template.

2. Render the audio using the AC-3 Stereo template, and use the same file name as you used for the video.

3. Import the video and audio into DVDA.

If you do this, I can guarantee that you will not see any expansion of the files.

Do NOT render progressive (unless your source material is progressive).

Given what you posted, the DAR file won't help, because your project settings are definitely not the issue. The real problem is that you are encoding incorrectly in Vegas. Correct that problem, and it should be smooth sailing.
Chienworks wrote on 1/2/2006, 5:34 AM
"I wanted to avoid rendering a rendered MPG file"

This is happening anyway when DVD Architect compresses your files. You aren't avoiding it.

"As I stated previously, the original MPEG file has to server two purposes and playback as a DVD ROM on a PC without the annoying interlace lines during motion is critical."

This really requires two separate renders since you want files to serve two separate purposes. Trying to create a single set of files to fit both uses isn't going to work.

Just a hint for future reference ... don't delete the project from your hard drive until after you have your finished DVDs complete and you know your audience is viewing it properly.
jkb242 wrote on 1/2/2006, 12:58 PM
Thanks again fo the input.

I believe I have inflicted the pain myself in attempting to save and render to the Progressive format for dual purposes when I should have not taken this short cut. You were right originally when you stated this, I was simply hoping that one size would fit all sins. OK I will accept that this and learn from the talent like yourself who so very freely give of their experince and knowledge.

Many sincere thanks to all who provided input. Hopefully others learned from my mistakes.

Thanks Again!!!
jkb242 wrote on 1/2/2006, 1:03 PM
Chienworks,


My reply to johnmeyer is addressed to you for offering assistance as I appreaciate your valued input and that from others who were so generous to assist, Scottw included even though his suggestion was to get a better player, not sure exactly what he meant but he too recognized the error of my ways.

Thanks to all.




bStro wrote on 1/2/2006, 2:53 PM
You can still render your videos to progressive format -- but you should do the framerate at 23.976 (NTSC 24p)

Rob