hard drives?

johnmeyer wrote on 10/30/2004, 4:47 PM

For DV, it really doesn't matter. Only one word matters: BIG. The only reason to pay any attention to performance is not for capture or for rendering, but for copying or transferring files from one disk to another.

External Firewire are nice if you need to capture on one computer and then edit on another (something I do all the time). They also make it easy to archive projects.

You always want a separate hard disk for your video. A separate partition doesn't count. You want a physically separate disk drive. There are some glitches with Firewire drives (read these forums) mostly having to do with print to tape and external monitor preview. Most people, however, don't have these problems so don't let that scare you.

RAID/Sata, etc. are overkill for DV, but if you are going to migrate to HD, then you should get these.

Red96TA wrote on 10/30/2004, 8:28 PM

I agree with johnmeyer...sata or ide...doesn't really matter with dv.

Personally, I run two hdd's off the same ide cable...my master is a new Maxtor 200gb and the slave is an older 80gb.

VV5 says that I can store upwards of 12 hours of dv on the 200gb hdd...that's plenty.

To save some cash, just get one ide hdd and set it up as slave and just use your current drive as master.

snicholshms wrote on 10/30/2004, 9:20 PM

I read a post here about two years ago that suggested using HDD trays and 120 GB HDDs. So I bought some trays, 120GBHDDs (IDE not SATA) and they work great. Check out the trays here:

http://www.vipowershop.com/html/mobile_rack.html

These are the trays I've used: VP-10KPFU-133 and they're $8.00 each! You can get additional trays for your HDDs for about $6.00 each. Email the USA rep on the website for an online dealer.

I've got a dozen HDD/Trays and it makes working on several projects so much easier than being stuck with one additional HDD in the NLE PC.

Liam_Vegas wrote on 10/30/2004, 9:26 PM

I now have 20 of the exact same trays... installed in 3 external USB2/Firewire drives.

snicholshms wrote on 10/30/2004, 9:51 PM

You can buy the HDDtrays and additional removeable HDD tray inserts here:

http://www.pcwebshopper.com/vipower.html

aspenv wrote on 10/30/2004, 10:19 PM

Hi Liam, can you point to external enclosures that have space for these trays?
tha's a great idea, btw.
thanks!

Liam_Vegas wrote on 10/30/2004, 10:47 PM

These are the ones that I use Compucable FireExpress 525DX

They are not very pretty - but have worked very reliably for me.

aspenv wrote on 10/30/2004, 11:26 PM

Thanks for info Liam.

wethree wrote on 10/31/2004, 10:01 AM

Hey Liam--

When I look at pics for the FireExpress 525DX It looks like all my other external firewire cases (closed in the front so you can't just slide out, unplug and hot-swap replace another HD with tray.

And the description text oddly leaves out this as an explicit feature-- 'you can just slide out and replace your project harddrrives when they get full or must be transported and be hotplug reinstalled elsewhere... instead of being nailed to its perch by a minimum of hard to undo set screws, needing to be fired down and unplugged, and on and on--

And anyone got another kind of this enclosure-- so we can compare features.

Thanks Liam and all.

Also-- found that only outlet I could find for FireExpress 525DX
was a MAC house-- is that where you've shopped Liam?

bestx3,
bt

Liam_Vegas wrote on 10/31/2004, 10:21 AM

When I look at pics for the FireExpress 525DX It looks like all my other external firewire cases (closed in the front so you can't just slide out, unplug and hot-swap replace another HD with tray.

Simple - the front is just a piece of plastic and it is designed to be removed if you need to. There are more reasons why you might want to do this (other than for a drive caddy system).

Just think about this for a little bit more. How do you think these external cases can be used for a CD/DVD drive? If there was no way of leaving the front open - how would you get a DVD/CD into there?

And the description text oddly leaves out this as an explicit feature

You are correct - they DON't talk about being able to use these cases for this purpose... but I (and a lot of other people) ARE doing this. The simple fact is they will accept any device the represents an IDE interface to the case electronics. These drive caddies appear just like an IDE interface so there is nothing to worry about.

and... DON'T Hot-swap the removeable drives EVER. The hot-swap they are talking about is the ability to plug and unplug the actual external cases themselves from your system (via firewire or USB).

Please refer to my post on this thread about how to safely swap drives in-and-out of the external case without having to power off your PC.

Also-- found that only outlet I could find for FireExpress 525DX

I got mine from Frys - not sure if they still supply them. I'm sure you can get them from a MAC house - they are the same unit.

You can also order online from Tiger Direct

-Liam

ken c wrote on 10/31/2004, 10:39 AM

I have 5 different firewire drives, 120gig-280gig, all chained together.. I need more storage...any tips on what external drives are best, or a better approach to managing over 2000 gigs of content? I have a lot of stock avi footage, old projects I want to be able to access instantly etc..

ken

Liam_Vegas wrote on 10/31/2004, 10:44 AM

At the risk of seeming to suggest the obvious - How about using external drives with the removeable drive trays - like we have been discussing in this thread? Would they work for you? (I have nearly 4 TB on 22 drives)

Sure... you won't be able to (and should not) have dozens of drives active at once... but I am sure you can find a way to organize your drives so that you can easily slide in and and the ones that have stock footage that you normally use - alongside the actual project specific drives you are working on.

I do this myself. I have Editor Toolkit / Jumpbacks and other "stock" video libraries on certain disks that I load in. Then I have my curret project files on another drive. Using removeable drive trays in this way I can easily have access to the more than 20 video drives I need to work on.

wethree wrote on 10/31/2004, 11:52 AM

Thanks for the reply Liam--

Here's the funny thing. I too typically pick up my stuff at Frys.

The Frys in my area (Renton/Seattle) offers no less than three varieties of these inexpensive trays,YET not one of them will fit (all too long) in the ADS, and two or three Generic harddrive combo USB2/1394 enclosures they also stock. Long and short is-- I read your past thread a while ago-- spent about a week trying to round up the components to put together -- in the best of both worlds--
1) a portable DIY field unit (lets say two 1394 enclosures that can be pigtailed and stuffed with IDE drives on these inexpensive racks).
AND
2) a studio mini tower with the capability of multiple SATA drives ON PORTABLE RACKS that can be easily slid in and out -- and RAIDED together in the near future when HDV becomes the thing being PUSHED...

Thanks for the reminder about the NEVER UNPLUG an encased IDE drive from its IDE to 1394 plug in these racks. I just learned recently -- and Ken, you might want to check on this too-- that when you enclose an IDE drive in a 1394 enclosure and then have multiple enclousures piggybacked-- and XP detects, assigns drivers and succesfully recognizes that IDE drive, it defaults to MY COMPUTER>Manage>Device Manager>Policies>Disk drives>Policies> change default Optimize for quick removal (which allows you to get in the baddddd habit of disconnecting harddrives in the thick of it, TO Optimize for performance, which as I understand, enables the caching that allows that drive to act like a real video drive instead of a 'shut down all other systems and coax it through another bad capture episode.'

When I looked the other day, I noticed that since landing Vegas 5 ( and adding twice to my storage-- more than half of my drives were defaulted to dumb but loveably hotswappable-- and now that they are not-- I have to go though and reassess the sluggishness in some of my workflow that I had attributed to V5 and find out how much was because of my wrongly optimized drives.

bestx3,

bt

wethree wrote on 10/31/2004, 11:56 AM

OOOOO sorry--

Should preview before sending. If you can't fill in the blank between the diagnosis and the solution proposed-- let me know. I'm usually so far behind in this group that you've all filled in my blanks years before they even show up.

And of course I'm gonna send this one right off too without a preview...

Liam_Vegas wrote on 10/31/2004, 12:00 PM

I too had the ADS case originally and found that it was very tight with the drive tray use. Which is why I went looking far and wide for a case that was big enough - and that is why I have now got these Compucable cases.

I also standardized on the ViPower cases (once youf find one manufacturere/type that works - you HAVE to stick with them - as of course you cannot mix them).

In my case I know that these ViPower drive trays work (fit) inside the Compucable box - so that is what I use.

riredale wrote on 10/31/2004, 2:58 PM

Over a year ago I bought my first ADS Pyro firewire case, and I found that you could shoehorn in an "InClose" (Ha!) drive tray system if you removed one of the mounting screws from the fan shield and cut off one of the shield wires. It's tight, but it's worked very well for the past year. The best of both worlds.

boomhower wrote on 12/23/2004, 2:47 PM

Picking up on an older thread here but wanted to ask question.....I have two Startech Drive Drawers

http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.aspx?manufacturePartNumber=IDE66PRODRWR

and I would like to use them as this thread has discussed with the Viper drawers. Anyone know if these would fit into the FireXpress Box that has been mentioned here? These are meant to be installed in the tower but I would like to utilize them externally and be able to edit on my laptop while away from the desktop. I called Tiger Direct about the FireXpress and was told they didn't have it even though it was on the site. The guy basically told me what I wanted to do was impossible and tried to sell me a firewire external drive.....anyway....Right now they are just sitting around begging to be used.

Liam_Vegas wrote on 12/23/2004, 3:01 PM

I can only guess. The dimensions of that (your) unit are 8.9 x 5.7 by 1.7 inches. The dimensions of the trays I use are 8.4 x 5.8 x 1.6. So your ones seem to be a good .5 inch longer. That may make all the difference - although the result may simply be the tray sticks out the front of the housing a little (which I don't think will do any harm). I should say it is worth a try anyway. You can always use the external drive and just plug an IDE drive in directly... or buy one of the tray systems that I use.

Obviously your trays are MUCH more robust than the ones I use which go for about $12 each (yours are $58 each I think). The spec on your drive trays does look very good - especailly for high-speed drives. But... just so you know I have 20 of these things and none has failed in the past several years.

boomhower wrote on 12/23/2004, 3:21 PM

Thanks Liam....I was looking at the Vipers you mentioned and remembered I had these two Startechs collecting dust. I like the setup you have described (works and is cost efficient).....just wanted to use something onhand if possible.

I noticed today at CompUSA they have external enclosures for @ $19 that you can drop internal drives into for a quick external setup. They were USB 2.0 (don't recall if they were firewire as well). How does that compare (technically) to the setup you use (firexpress etc).

Liam_Vegas wrote on 12/23/2004, 4:04 PM

Without seeing those external drives I cannot really compare. Of course the whole point of the setup I have is that I can slide in or out any of the more than 22 drives I have into the enclosure in seconds. Unless your solution is instead to by dozens of these cheap USB2 enclosures and therefore you don't actually need the drive trays at all. At that price (and if they are good units) it may be worth it.

The fireexpress has internal fans - and the drive tray also has a fan. I have previously used external drives that had no fan.. and promptly took them back to the store when I found out how hot the units got.

boomhower wrote on 12/23/2004, 4:30 PM

Thanks again....I'm going to give the FireXpress a shot. I like the idea alot....
KB