Jay Rose wrote an informative article for DV Magazine called Copy Rites. It is on the DV.com website. Sign-up is free. Printer friendly version available.

http://www.dv.com/columns/columns_item.jhtml?LookupId=/xml/feature/2003/rose0803&category=Audio%20Solutions

John

>>> I have looked around on the web but have not really found any information on the subject.<<<

I would say you have not looked that hard then. :)

In no order -

Contact the label for rights to use that recording.
Contact the publisher (I.E - BMI, SOCAN, ASCAP)

Beyond that some artists have specific management that represents their work for use in film, tv, video and commercials. An example is Bug Music, who handles many artists for this reason.

You can go to a music clearing house as well...or maybe I should say 'agent'. Harry Fox used to do it but I will say, for a fact, they used to sort of dump 'eveyones' work into their database and claim to actually handle it when in reality they did not.

Now you can also get into the area of dealing with artists directly. Problem is that the industry still, overall, doesn't get it. Artists are smarter now but very few have the full control over their material they really should have. So if so and so tells you they love what you have done and you can use their song and their performance of it that doesn't mean their publisher will allow it, or even their label. But the same things happens in reverse as well - go direct to a label and publisher and say you want to buy rights for a song to use in a Nike commercial and as long as you can pay the money who cares what the artist wants. Problem is that most of the time the publisher and label have more money and legal man power to step on all the little people (That would be you and me) than the artist that makes the publishers and lables the money in the first place do. (As a side note I just read a little thing today on the upcoming DVD releases of TV shows. There is a quote about Miami Vice, who used many, many songs in the show, 'probably never' being released on DVD because getting the music rights is too expensive and too hard to deal with.) (And FWIW - The guy who owns/created Heavy Metal and TMNT tried for years to get music cleared to be able to release the movie Heavy Metal on home video/dvd. He finally did it but it took something like 15 years.)

This is really long kind of issue but that gives you something direct to look for.

Someone told me about this site: http://www.copyright.gov/carp/

and the procedure is to contact the publisher and give them $0.08 per copy of the particular song. I haven't done this yet for an upcoming CD that we are assembling, and was wondering if anyone else does this. Hey, for eight cents a song, there's no reason to bypass this.

I had the impression that the price was the price; there was no negotiation involved with the publisher.

>>>and the procedure is to contact the publisher and give them $0.08 per copy
>>>of the particular song. I haven't done this yet for an upcoming CD that we
>>>are assembling, and was wondering if anyone else does this. Hey, for eight
>>>cents a song, there's no reason to bypass this.

Actually this is not the way it works...this is such a long process but here is an overly simple look at it.

I write a song.
I either publish it myself or have someone do it for me.
That song gets recorded.
That song gets played somewhere...anywhere.
*if* that song is listed on the playsheets of a radio station, for example, I will
recieve an amount of money from the publisher. If it is used on a commercial
that price might be different. But it is not what the artist gets we are talking
about, it would be what you pay the publisher. So you may have to
pay the publisher $0.08 per video sold, or copy of the CD sold, based on xx
amount of copies but if you want to use that same song on a network TV show
AND have that same song included on a soundtrack CD *and* plan on putting
out the show on DVD and video that price will be different. And if you say you
want worldwide rights you will find another whole set of things, and possibly
companines, to deal with.

I record a song.
The recording is put out by a label.
When that recording of that song is played or used I, hopefully, will get some money because of that.

Now - the legal type stuff all falls into place. An overly simple view of it -

The label pays to record the song. The label pays to press CD's (or whatever) of that song. The label pays to promote (hopefully) that song. Unless you are a huge act you do not get the first dollar of each copy sold, or used. You get the bottom dollar past expenses...not your expenses...the labels. Now provided you record a song that *you* wrote and that *you* kept the publishing than this is where you will make money. Mars Bonfire keeps getting money because the song he wrote gets played over and over again and covered over and over again and used in movies and TV and so on...over and over again. That song? Born to be Wild. On the other hand Sky Saxon needed money so he sold off the publishing to all his songs over time so now when you hear a song like Pushing too Hard the guy who wrote it and sang it doesn't get anything at all. (And Sky will be the first person to complain how the industry has screwed him over when in reality he screwed himself over by selling off his publishing) And most of the Beatles catalog is now owned by Michael Jackson so when you hear some of those classic Beatles songs - good ole Michael gets the check. (Actually buying up publishing rights to songs is actually a pretty solid business)

>>>I had the impression that the price was the price; there was no negotiation >>>involved with the publisher.

Again - Publishing is not the same as the mechanical portion of the music. Sort of 'he who records it owns it.' I know bands who have albums they can't get the masters for because they are 'owned' by a former label, ignore the fact the label has discontinued those albums and has no use for the masters. (And the same labels would be first to give you a price to use one of those discontinued recordings in a project) I worked with one band whose singer died and about a year after I contacted the publishing company just for the heck of it to see about use of one of the songs. I got a reply that I would have to pay the artist for its use. So I, being the ironic sarcastic person I am, shot back "So you mean the family right? Because the person who wrote this song died." and the publishers response was "I know they died but even so it doesn't matter because I own that song." Of course the "I" was the publishing company.

Most companies have set fees for this type of thing so in a way there is not really negotiations that happen *unless* you are working with an established music clearance house. If you alone got to Warner Brothers and say "I want to use 15 - 20 seconds of this artist's song in my project" chances are you will get a flip response of "Yeah that will be $20,000, but that is just my fee and has noting to do with publishing or anything else." and what that means in for $20,000 you get the right to use that RECORDING. It does not really mean you have the right to reproduce that recording in any way (IE - home video, DVD, Pay per view, Pay cable, netowrk TV, etc etc) nor does it cover any sort of publishing costs for the actual play on said formats. A student project will carry a different price that a major network and both of those will have a different price than DVD and all of that will have a different price than anything foreign. So my point is that their are people who work with studios, agents, labels, artists who do this full time. These are people who go out and to together soundtracks for projects and take care of all the BS for you.

...Thus all the interest in royalty-free music...

Filmy is on the correct path...but I'll try and over simplify.

The $0.08 deal you are referring to is if I want to make a cover of the music in question. American copyright law is clear. Once published, I can make a version of the "song" for a fee of (currently) $0.08 per unit. That is, if I want to "press" 500 CDs with the song on it - I have to pay 500 x $.08 royalties.

To obtain the license, you have to purchase a minimum...I believe it is 500.

That's if I want to recreate the track.

If I want to use someone else's music in my stuff....well....then you are talking a whole different ball of wax.

Heck, I wanted to just use a sample of audio in a track I was producing. I contacted the studio...and the price tag to use the less than 10 second sample would have been close to $10,000 bucks!!

I ferget who mentioned it - but, if it is just one CD for "private" use in your club...chances are you are not going to have lawyers come beating down your door (although technically it is a copyright infringement without prior written permission). But selling the CD....whoooooaaaa nelly, that is opening up a can o'worms I don't think you want to open. That could get very very nasty.

But, as said before, if you know artist in question (like a local band or something)....just ask them. If they say you can use it ... for frree.... then you are home free. Or if they agree to X-amount of buckage in return...then, again, you are home free.

Like, for example, if you had wanted to use any of the tracks on my last album (availble for review or purchase at www.cdbaby.com/kjv)....and dropped me a request via e-mail, I could say "sure thing"....write up a little release...and you would be good to go.

On the other hand if you used a track, started selling the CDs and there was no permission....there would be trouble in River City.

Lastly....you wouldn't exactly license the music through ASCAP/BMI, etc. Those agencies just make sure the artist gets paid. You would go through The Harry Fox Agency (http://www.harryfox.com).

Hope that helps.

Oh, and i just want to clarify from earlier. When i said local band or a band that you are friends with, i meant a band that isnt signed to a label and hold all claims to their music. Any label big or small might have purchased their rights.

It is very true what Starixiom says.

In my case, I still own all my rights to all my music - so, you would only have to deal directly with me.

But, if I had sold some of my rights - I could give you permission, but you would still need to get permission to whomever I sold/gave the rights to and make what ever deal you need to with them.

Once you start getting away from a sole owner...it gets very tricky. Luckily, I'm not there yet or have to worry about trying to license others music (yet). But, I know I may have to do that eventually cause I totally intend on doing more Video work and/or collabs.

Best o'luck!!

:-)

Geez, what a mess! I'm all for paying a creator for his or her creation, but there has to be a simpler way!

Anyway, this was not my thread, but I'd love to get some clarification from you guys. I am compiling a collection of performances by a youth choir. We will sell the CD as a fund-raiser. I was under the impression that the only folks I need to make happy are the publishers of the sheet music that the choir uses. Am I correct in assuming (dangerous word, I know) that our licensing costs for a 20-song CD would be 20x$.08= $1.60 for each CD?

In other words, we aren't using some other audio recording in our project. We're making our own music, but based on the written scores of various publishers. We're not singing our own creations.

>>> was under the impression that the only folks I need to make happy are the publishers of the sheet music that the choir uses.<<<

I believe that you may be talking about a few issues. First is the public performance "rights" which, for a choir, is normally included in the payment for the sheet music. However to record that music onto a CD and sell it is another issue and I would first and formost check with the company you purchased the music from. In some cases the 'fine print' may give you the answer you are seeking. For example - Gospel Light puts out CD's with split tracks for use in VBS. They also have compainion song books with the sheet music. The "license" is given to reproduce that sheet music and those CD's and the public performance rights as long as they are used in conjuction with the VBS and/or to promote the VBS. There may be some such wording on your sheet music to the effect of "non-commercial use".

For more details check:
ASCAP and in paticular read section 5. (Although keep in mind what I have already said about Harry Fox)

BMI

Bug Music

SOCAN

sorry to chime in with a non-professional oriented question, but i read the dv.com link and it didn't really answer my question completely so i'll post it here and see what people have to say, either from personal experience or because of personal knowledge.

Here is my queery:

I happen to be the only one out of a couple of friends of mine who actually enjoys using his video camera and the only one who has spent any money to get editing software (vegas and equipment, firewire card).

I was invited to one of their weddings and they asked me if i could shoot some of the wedding. I figured sure why not, at least i won't be too bored then. They were asking for a favour and i was offering to help them out, no money changed hands and no money ever will change hands.

i have put all the footage together, but want to know if i can add music to project. Both my friend and I have rather large music collections, two situations: can i pick stuff from my collection put it on the video and give to my friend? or have breached the copyright act. (i think i may if i go this route)

alternatively, if she tells me the songs she wants and i pick them from her collection, add the tracks then give her the final product have i breached the copyright?

finally, i am getting married this november and plan to edit the footage myself. Can i use my own music and give the video to myself or have i breached the copyright?

hope someone can help, i would really like to be able to give her this little gift, their anniversary is coming up and i think it would be a great gift.

thanks

dgg in ottawa

dgg - I think you may get many different answers, but basically...from what I have gathered in these forums, in the WEVA forums, the videomaker.com forums, and in the Pinnacle forums, you will be in breach of copyright. Period. The publishers and other owners have had to years to hire scads and scads of lawyers to draft up countless..... you get the idea.

However...it's always at the "however" when the opinions start to roll in :)

There is no easy way for us to license the songs we want in the quantities we use, this is what I have found. I specifically asked BMI how do I license one of your songs for 5 copies of a wedding video that will never be shown or broadcast publicly...and they said "I don't know".

As an experiment I think I will try to ask the publisher for permission in writing as was suggested in a magazine column, I believe in Videomaker. But, if I don't get any response, does that give me permission?

How about if I word the letter to the publisher like this - "If you do not respond in writing I will take that you are giving me your complete permission"...and send it by certified mail.....

hmmm.......

- David

In the first two scenarios you presented, YES, you have infringed on someone's (artist or megaconglomerations) copyright. Not sure about the last one though "can i use my own music and give it to myself" Do you mean own like i created the music myself or own as in i went to the store and purchased the cd?

Will men who resemble Matlock come to your door? Probably Not. THe time, cost, and damages wouldnt be material enough to even file the papers. Keep in mind copyright infringement is not a criminal act (however, in some cases it can be.) Copyrights are to protect the commercial viability of a piece of work. Most settlements are monetary in nature and are awarded based upon the preponderance of the evidence.

So short answer, if you license or gain permission to use from all copyright parties then yes you can use it as dictated by your agreement. If you choose to skip this step and take a chance, dont be shocked if Matlock shows up at your door.

Sidenote: I think Matlock only practiced criminal law. But times are tough, he probably is doing a little IP work on the side.

so basically, it seems i'm up a creek without a paddle.

this may sound silly, but when i listen to an mp3 on my computer and use the visualization studio, isn't that the same as putting the music to video? and i just can't seem to get my mind around the fact that even if i own the music, i can't put it to video for my own personal use. ie my wedding video. holly crap this is worse than i thought. i may just have to write to the rights owners and aske them how much for one copy and a backup. this seems nuts.

anyone else want to add their .02

I should add that your best bet is to find some decent royalty free music, support those who sell their audio work for hire, and make sure it says for non-commercial use if that is your intentions. I think SF sells these cds on their site or used to. Keep in mind you wont get the lastest Aerosmith.

Edit: There is really no creek. Just decide how you want to approach the matter.

Me from Thailand,
I'll just not care about royalties fees if the final production is only for personal use no matter how many copies i made (actually sending as gifts), i bet police are not that free to catch us on few copies of "wedding celemony cds", however if the really do, my solution would be destroying those copies of cds to just satisfy the respected rights owners.
But for reproduction or selling think its hard to say, to me i would just compare how much lawyer fees respected owners would pay for.. with how much they could get from me. Well i'll not get rich from using just few copies of their songs for "my little business" or part time job. well.... sue me n i'll just pay for it, make sure you get from me worth your lawyer charges.

This is just nuts.

Just for reference, I wonder what "rights" existed 200 years ago? Obviously, there weren't any recording devices, but there were still means of putting down words or music on paper. What was the rule back then? A musician clearly made money when he or she performed the work. What if someone else took the song, called it his own, and performed it also? Did the courts award damages to the original composer?

What about written works? If a poem was penned and later copied by someone else, did the law of the time recognize an infringement?

Of course, times are very different now, but perhaps the pendulum has swung much too far, and is now starting to swing back. I'm just curious how societies dealt with this issue before the rise of the current system.

Well....it is actually not as difficult as this thread is making it out to be.

If you go to a store and purchase a cd with music on it - you don't own the copyrights to it. You can listen to it to your hearts content...and legally make copies for your personal use. That's the law (in the States anyway).

If you then take that music and put it in a production (video, audio CD...what ever) and give it away or sell it...you, my friend, are in copyright violation. It's that simple.

If you want to license a particular song, recreate the music (as stated in an earlier thread)...that is very doable...just contact The Harry Fox Agency and get the license from them. They basically have ALL of everything. The cost is $0.08 with a minimum of 500 licenses.

If they don't have it - you would then have to contact the publisher who owns the copyright and request permission and make whatever arrangements needed.

As for listening to MP3s on your PC and watching the little lite show - no...that is not a video, that is just a little algorythm that is run. Not even in the same ball park.

Lastly....as for a wedding CD burned to give to friends and such - I wouldn't sweat it too much. Matlock is probably not going to come knocking on your door. However....that DJ at the reception or in the hall that was rented for the reception - He needs to be paying royalties to be play the music he is playing. Oh there are all sorts of Matlock people that can come down on him if he didn't.

All legitamate nightclubs and elevator music systems and the music you hear while shopping or at Starbucks....they all pay the royalties they are suppose to. ASCAP/BMI and that other one make sure of it.

If you really want to know all the ins and outs of copyright law (and what happened 200 years ago) just go to the Library of Congress website. It's all right there in black and white (or is it blue and white...???)


(Oh yeah...as for getting sued....PSJOHNY....if they really did come after you, here in the States anyway...you would be looking at fines of up to $250,000 PER INCIDENT. Let's do the math. You do 4 CDs with improperly licensed stuff on it - you are looking at a cool Million smackaroo's for our "little business". Just MHO.)

kameronj summarized it perfectly. There really is no loopholes if you want to sell unlicensed music in your production for the Motorcycle club. Either you have permission or you dont. Matlock might show up at the reception but thats just to get a piece of cake. He wont bust you for a wedding video; unless of course you sell, distribute, blah blah blah.

Keep in mind copyright laws protect all of us. Not just a select few. As soon as you put your pen to the pad, or whatever analogy you want to use, you are pretty much entitled the same protection as the more recognized artist. Registering and defending a copyright claim is when money starts changing hands.

On a newsgroup/list I subscribe to, about a year or so ago, there was this exact conversation and it was brought up, in very specific terms and cases, about some wedding videographers who went out and shot a friends wedding and acted out the scenerio you (DGG) mention...and somehow they got busted. They got hauled off to court and even though they did it for a friend, made no money, etc, etc...they got fined big bucks. I wish I had the thread saved somewhere...the overall 'final' conclusion was that even if you "only make a few copies for friends" you were still, legally, breaking the law if you used copyrighted music on the tape and duplicated it without permission. Didn't matter if it was 1 copy or 5 million copies, free or not free. (The whole Napster issue is a perfect thing to look at with this topic - it was 'free', no money was charged to get a copy of a song, so how was that illegal?) From the people who did this for a living the conclusion was that it just was not worth the risk to lose their business and ruin their reputation to pull some music off their favorite CD to put on a wedding video, even if the chances of getting caught were slim.

Now...here is something just to think about that has not really been mentioned. If you are shooting a wedding and a news outlet, for whatever reason, wants to use part of that video that sort of falls under 'fair use' because the rules are different for news. I could make a living out of editing news stories and not have to worry about paying royalties or rights use fees for music that may be in the footage I shot (i.e - I go out and cover a concert). If I was the station that aired it it would be a bit different however but chances are that station is already under a yearly blanket license that covers anything music wise anyway.

And to the question of how this all got to this point - well, a simple look back at how so many people (artists) got screwed out of money in the past simply lead to new laws being added. Home video added another issue. Tv added another. Pay for view added another. DVDs another. Internet radio..another. Napster..yet another. And it goes on. No one is really imune from it...I said in one of my other posts about Miami Vice. It won't be coming out on DVD anytime soon becuase of the music issues. Then, if anyone has seen The Princess Diaries in the US and in Europe you will notice a slighty different soundtrack. Also if anyone saw Heros in a theater or when it first aired on pay cable (HBO) you will no doubt remember the image of Henry Winkler running down a street and than sitting down weeping as the sounds of a Kansas song came up..."Once I rose above the noise and confusion, Just to get a glimpse beyond the illusion..." Now if anyone saw the same film on TV or has it on video you will notice some lame ass song in it's place...well, IMO 'lame ass' because the Kansas song just fit in so perfect. Anyhow - yeah...apprently when the film was made the producers did not have their sites aimed into the future so TV rights and home video rights were never secured.

Yes it seems so very complicated and it gets that way if go into it blindly.

thanks for all the input.

hit the post buttom without realizing i wasn't really done.

does anyone have any links... where you can obtain the necessary rights if you wan't to put music in your video's?

boy oh boy what have i gotten myself into. ah well, i'll treat it as a learning experience and the next time someone asks me to shoot their wedding...