Completed projects, how do *you* store them?

Jay Gladwell wrote on 6/24/2004, 4:57 AM
I've got several completed projects (raw video, veggie files, generated media, final output, etc.) that I'd like to keep in tact. I need to remove them from the hard drives to make room for upcoming projects.

What are you using for storage? Details would be greatly appreciated.

Would something like the Fantom Drives Titanium USB 2.0 Hard Drives work for such a task? Or would the drives have to be firewire capable? [edit] Both have "Up to 40MB/sec sustained transfer rate."

Thanks in advance for your help and suggestions!

Jay

Comments

Spot|DSE wrote on 6/24/2004, 5:25 AM
Jay,
We use the SAVE AS and check the "save with media" option. Depending on the project, we either save to a hard drive and put it in a foilpak, or we store it to DVD and seal it off. This way we can easily recall it for a client, cheaply and quickly, competely intact.
farss wrote on 6/24/2004, 5:38 AM
I'm finding DVDs to be a pretty good option for storing the files but HDs in plugable modules might be more convenient for large projects. Advantage of them is you don't have any interface hassles and the SATA versions seem to be hot swappable. Only thing that makes me a little nervous is the possibility of the HD failing.
Lanzaedit wrote on 6/24/2004, 7:54 AM
Spot & farss (and anybody else),

When you're storing to DVD, are you saving the media itself or just the data information?

Since recording video to DVD creates MPEG-2 files, I'm assuming that you're just saving the data to DVD...which means you'll need to batch capture your needed footage (for those times when you need to re-edit or update something for a returning client). Am I following your workflow correctly?

John
Jay Gladwell wrote on 6/24/2004, 8:06 AM
Yes, John, that was my thought, too. I'm looking to avoid having to recapture the video--just move the entire project--captured video and all--to another drive. That way, if the client needs to re-edit, all one would have to do is plug in the drive and go at it. . . an assumption on my part.

Besides wanting to hear what others had to say in these regards, I wanted to know if the USB would work or would firewire be a must?

Jay
Fuzzy John wrote on 6/24/2004, 8:25 AM
If you copy your project folder to DVDs I don't see why you would have to recapture later. You just copy the project folder back from the DVDs to the hard drive and you should be all set, ready to edit some more or to use the DVDA project to burn more DVDs.
Jay Gladwell wrote on 6/24/2004, 8:29 AM
John, some of my projects are well over an hour in length. The entire project and its raw video could not be stored on a single DVD as a data file.

Jay
Chienworks wrote on 6/24/2004, 9:30 AM
USB will work. I wouldn't try this with USB 1, but USB 2 should be plenty fast enough. I prefer firewire as it seems more stable, but that's just a personal opinion. Fortunately, most contemporary drives and enclosures come with both USB 2 and firewire these days.
Jay Gladwell wrote on 6/24/2004, 9:42 AM
I prefer firewire as it seems more stable, but that's just a personal opinion.

Thanks, Kelly, that's the kind of input I was looking for, along with some other info given in earlier posts above.

I've noticed that firewire drives cost a little more, but if they're more stable, then I'd agree it's worth it.

Jay
randy-stewart wrote on 6/24/2004, 9:57 AM
To add to what Spot was saying, I also use DVD storage as data files using the save as with "trimmed clips" option to store my finished projects. If the files are too big, I save the finished file first to hard drive in a separate folder (trimmed media checked), then I split the video clip files up to fit on DVD's with one DVD as the master with the .veg file (which has a reference to all the clips). When I reload the project, I either just copy all of the files into my new workspace from the DVD's or I let Vegas ask me to relocate the files whereas I just navigage to the DVD where they are located and then resave the entire project on the hard drive. I prefer the DVD method since it is very portable, stores well, and I can use them on my laptop to edit while in the field or traveling.
Randy
GordyHinky wrote on 6/24/2004, 10:21 AM
What about drive letters? Am I wrong in thinking that whenever a new drive is hooked up to the computer it is given a new drive letter? How does this affect Vegas finding the media?

In regards to the "Save as" command with "trimmed media", does it actually make the file sizes of clips in my project smaller. For example would it trim off the media outside of my select portion of a video clip and then save that clip asa smaller video file? (i.e. a 1Gig video clip trimmed into a file smaller than 1 Gig? (if so than obviously the video clip would no longer have the big data, right?)

OR does it just not save the the clips you had in your "All Media" folder (in the Media Pool) but didn't use in your project?
mrs_smiths_lad wrote on 6/24/2004, 10:31 AM
Could one zip all the raw data files with path names to a DVD then unzip them back to original locations.?
Summersond wrote on 6/24/2004, 10:41 AM
I will keep my projects on the hard drive till I feel that the customer is happy with what they have (usually 2-3 weeks), then:

1. I make a copy of the final DVD I give to the client for myself.
2. Delete the .avi files that were created from capture.
3. Keep the .veg and associated files and save them to a backkup data DVD with other projects.
4. Keep the original mini-dv's for the project.

This way, if I ever have to recreate the project, I have the stuff to do it with.

dave
Chuck_DeFiore wrote on 6/24/2004, 10:49 AM
You've probably looked at this already, but we are going to be using this for extra storage. It's the Iomega Rev drive. Claims 35 gb of uncompressed storage. Hope this helps. Chuck

http://www.iomega.com/na/products/family-save.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=16006169&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=63191&bmUID=1088099222835
Jay Gladwell wrote on 6/24/2004, 10:56 AM
Thanks, Chuck, I hadn't seen that. I'll be sure to check it out!

Jay
GlenL wrote on 6/24/2004, 12:11 PM
One detail to cover an assumption. This approach works great, as long as your AVI file was a capture of the entire minDV tape. If you pulled only portions of the miniDV tape, you'll want the timecodes for the segments. Then it's OK to delete AVIs because you can recreate them exactly.
JaysonHolovacs wrote on 6/24/2004, 1:02 PM
I'm trying to figure this out too. I have captured AVI from DV, rendered files(AVIs) from Vegas, output folders from DVD-A(AUDIO_TS / VIDEO_TS), and finally the final DVD media. I'm doing this for personal use, not clients.

So, of course I keep a copy of the final playable DVD. Probably the folders from DVD-A can be deleted(aren't they exactly what's on the DVD?) and the rendered files from Vegas also. It might take me a few hours to recereate it all but there's no loss. Then I can save the veggies and original AVIs, probably to a DVD(as data). I could do the "trim media" option, which would reduce the space, but it would also lose unused footage which I might want if I wanted to re-edit in the future. Not sure on this.

Do AVIs zip well? It might make sense to zip before saving to DVD. I want to use AVI because I don't want any loss of quality to the originals.

Also, there's the question of reliability: What is the most reliable media for long term storage? DVD+R? DVD+RW? DV tape? Something else? If I keep this for years, how do I ensure it won't degrade?

Maybe this is a dumb question, but is DV capture 100% lossless? Meaning if I capture a gig of AVI data from a particular tape and time code, then do it again, will the files compare exactly? Or can a bit here and there be lost during transmission? Is there error correction?
BrianStanding wrote on 6/24/2004, 1:32 PM
It seems to me that DV tape is the cheapest storage medium for DV footage.

Here's what I do:

1. Save the following to CD or DVD as data files:
- .sfvidcap batch capture files
- .veg files
- scanned stills, "wild" audio recording or any other media that did not originate on DV

2. If I have a lot of time-intensive FX or composting renders, I will put these in a new .veg file with identifying slates and print to DV tape, so I can recapture the rendered files rather than having to render again.

3. Format the A/V drive to get ready for the next project.

4. If I need to recreate a project, I simply open the .veg file from the CD, and Vegas prompts me to recapture deleted media. Insert the original DV tapes as prompted, let Vegas recapture and you're done.

If you're really paranoid about DV tape data loss, you can always make a firewire dub of the DV tapes.
GlenL wrote on 6/24/2004, 2:51 PM
Q: Do AVIs zip well? It might make sense to zip before saving to DVD. I want to use AVI because I don't want any loss of quality to the originals.

A: Depends upon the codec used for the video format within the AVI and the content. A quick test shows that AVIs with uncompressed RGB can compress between 26-39% when zipped. AVIs with DV (a compressed format) compressed only an additional 11-15% when zipped.

Q: Also, there's the question of reliability: What is the most reliable media for long term storage? DVD+R? DVD+RW? DV tape? Something else? If I keep this for years, how do I ensure it won't degrade?

A: DVD-R and DVD+R are your best bet for long term storage. The dyes used for –RW and +RW are less stable.

I’ve seen a post that recommended re-reading the miniDV tape every 10 years and writing to a new tape. Except for head wear it actually would be a good system.

Q: Maybe this is a dumb question, but is DV capture 100% lossless? Meaning if I capture a gig of AVI data from a particular tape and time code, then do it again, will the files compare exactly? Or can a bit here and there be lost during transmission? Is there error correction?

A: DV “capture” is a file transfer so it is 100% lossless in that sense. The DV-SD format and IEEE 1394 include error correction (in fact, that’s why someone recommended buying less expensive 1394 cables).
ken c wrote on 6/24/2004, 3:22 PM
As a note on hard drives, I've had all kinds, used all kinds for years, the only kind I trust is Western Digital now ... just as in monitors, I just use Sonys (never samsung).

and agree re backing up files regularly to DVD is a smart idea as well


ken
Fuzzy John wrote on 6/24/2004, 6:56 PM
My last project was 86 minutes in length. I stored this project on 10 DVDs. That included everything needed for me to get back to work in the future if needed: captured video, MP3 files, project files for Vegas and DVDA, stills, notes and other stuff. It also included the "DVD Burn" folder that DVDA uses to burn the discs.
RichMacDonald wrote on 6/24/2004, 9:20 PM
>John, some of my projects are well over an hour in length. The entire project and its raw video could not be stored on a single DVD as a data file.

Chunk them up into smaller segments then. 1) Do a save-as to get a pristine stand-alone copy of the project. 2) Get yourself a copy (free) of QuickPar, and have it compress your project into multiple rar/par fixed-size files. Note: Don't bother with compression, because your files are already compressed. Note 2: The extra par files provide redundancy in case some of your DVDs go bad. Note 3: Have enough room on your HD for double the size of the project. 3) Save the rar/par files to DVD. You'll also need something like Winrar to extract the project back onto your HD.

The above will work fine, but personally I use backup software Retrospect and archive to CDs. This is for historical reasons, i.e., I had several 100 GB archived this way before rar/par became an attractive option.
HeeHee wrote on 6/25/2004, 12:34 PM
I just did some research on this Iomega Rev drive.

This seams like an easy way to archive projects, but expensive.

PROS
- Holds up to 90GB compressed or 35GB uncompressed (DV projects probably somewhere in between)
- Can use just like a hard drive
- 8x faster than tape drive
- Don't have to keep changing DVD's or split up projects (Can probably hold one project per disk)
- Don't have to take apart to change drive as you would for a external hard drive carriage.
- Less risk of data loss due to drive failure (mechanical parts are in drive, not cartridge) vs. hard drive.
- Compact cartridge easy to store.
- Very portable if you have another rev drive or the external version.

CONS
- Expensive ($300+USD for drive, $50+USD for cartridge)
- Not sure how long media will be available
- Does not come in firewire version (only internal and USB 2.0)

The Pros appear to outweigh the Cons making this a very doable solution for DV project archiving.
dvdude wrote on 6/25/2004, 2:11 PM
BrianStanding,

This is pretty much precisely what I do (I would add though, that I always take the finished AVI back to DV tape for quality reasons - even if the target medium is DVD. And that I put the DVD-A projects in the same folders as the veggies and back 'em up too, together with any artwork or whatever....
vicmilt wrote on 6/26/2004, 10:21 AM
Hi Jay -
I've been using this technique for over three years - and it works great.
1. Get a (totallly and easily removable) plug-in Firewire Drive dock from www.wiebetech.com (about $125 or so).
2. Buy appririate sized internal HD's ON SALE at Best Buy, Circuit city, etc (about $.50 a Gig). If one 250 Gig drive won't handle the job, I just add drives to the chain as necessary. (My current project uses 2-160's, and 2-250's).
3.NOW - I don't EVERhave to archive ANYTHING, because all data concerning the job is on the outboard Firewire HD. I use these outboard drives to store:
Media Files, Veg Files, Jumpback files (that are included in THIS show), music, ACID files, JPEGS, Powerpoints (from client) PLUS all Client corresopondance, AICP bids, revision data... in other words - EVERYTHING having to do with the job.
Six months from now - or six years from now, if the client calls for revisions - it's all there. And exactly where I left everything, as well.
My big complaint with archiving edited footage (as explained above by Spot) is that I've found revisions invariably include footage missing from the original "accepted" video. Then you have to search it all out. My way - Everything In The Project is there.
If your job won't allow the expense of $80 bucks for a complete archive, add it onto the bottom line. No one will deny you this cost. And smaller jobs, don't even need 160Gig HD's - you might get away with 80's or less, depending on how much oridnal source material you gather.

Lately I've also taken to indexing all the files on each drive via Extensis Portfolio, but while it works, I don't love it (suggestions anyone?)

So if Sears (for instance) calls me next year for revisions, I just plug the "Sears 2004" drive into the Firewire hub permanently on my computer, and it's all there... exactly the way I remember it.

And yes, I have NO capture, render or playback problems with 400mps Firewire HD's.

Hope this tried and proven method helps.
v.