DVDA-2: Support for Dual Layer DVD+R ?

rtbond wrote on 5/1/2004, 4:23 AM

Hi Folks,

I just installed DVDA-2 and it does NOT appear to support preparing for dual layer DVD+R, as the maximum size prepared project is still 4.7 GB (not the 8.5 GB that DL DVD+R provides).

I'm more interested in DVDA-2 being able to allow me to **prepare** for DL DVDs, than to actually burn them. I'll use Nero to do the actual burning (I believe Nero has already added the ability to burn DL DVD+R discs, and frankly Nero will probably do a better job than DVDA-2 as this is their "bread and butter").

This is not a "burning issue" (sorry for the pun) at the moment as DL burners will not be on the market for another month or so, and DL DVD+R media will be in short supply (and probably rather pricey) for a while thereafter. I just wanted to be sure this was on the radar screen.

Thanks in advance.

--Rob

Comments

JakeHannam wrote on 5/2/2004, 11:21 AM

I wonder if this could be because DVDA does not see a dual-burner on your system so it does not offer you the choice. Kinda like menu choices that are grayed-out when not available or installed?

You might also want to try one of the 'custom' settings and NOT ask DVDA do an optimization.

I'm just speculating here because it is not an issue for me ... yet.

Jake

Express wrote on 5/3/2004, 8:22 PM

I created a >6GB project, just for fun.

DVDA complained that it was too big, but allowed me to render anyway.

I did not complete the render, but all indications are that it will create whatever size project you want.

anthony-chiappette wrote on 5/3/2004, 8:34 PM

It doesn't even support single layer -R, and I can't even burn on the +R anymore. The last 2 projects I've done, I had to render with DVDA2, and burn using Nero.

rtbond wrote on 5/4/2004, 2:04 AM

> I created a >6GB project, just for fun.

Great. That sounds promising. Thanks!

JSWTS wrote on 5/4/2004, 12:10 PM

It's going to take more than a third party burning app like Nero to burn dual layer discs. Although you might be able to create a project that exceeds the DVD-5 disc size, you can't define a layer break within DVDA-2, which is critical to creating a DL disc. Unless these third party burning apps are going to allow you to create such a layer break, you aren't going to be able to create a disc that will play on a set top player. You might be able to create a disc that a computer will read and play, but not a set top player.

Jim

rtbond wrote on 5/5/2004, 4:29 AM

Jim,

It's my understanding that Nero will provide the layer break function that you describe. So hopefully all DVDA-2 needs to do is allow you to prepare DVD projects larger than 4.3 Gbyte, which it appears to currently allow you do (with warnings).

See

http://www.nero.com/en/632164078246694.html

--Rob

farss wrote on 5/5/2004, 5:46 AM

I'd imagine though that the layer break needs to happen at a certain boundary, certainly not in the middle of a GOP or probably even within a VOB so the authoring app would need to be aware of how to do it, not just the burining software.
I'm also concerned at the risk of having even more compatibility issues with STB. So far I haven't really been hampered by the 4.7GB limit, it's only Hollywood DVDs with all those audio and subtitle tracks that need the larger capacity anyway.

JSWTS wrote on 5/5/2004, 6:36 AM

I guess we'll just have to wait and see, but my bet is that it won't be as simple as you describe. You have to define the break point, whether it will be PTP or OTP, if you want it to be seamless or non-seamless, etc. That has to be done within the authoring application, and how the authoring application performs these functions is critical to ultimate playback. That was one of the gripes of Apple's first version of DVD Studio Pro--that the way it created layer breaks resulted in many of the discs playing poorly if at all. I highly doubt that a third party burning app will be able to do this. There are apps that will allow you to alter the vob files after the project is compiled for these sorts of things, but they are expensive.

Jim

Express wrote on 5/5/2004, 3:40 PM

I certainly could be mistaken, but I don't think the layer break is big enough to keep Sony from implementing in version 2.

I am guessing that two things will happen.
1) DVDA will eventually support it (I hope version 2)
2) Nero (and others) will take the project, whatever size - and put it on the Dual Layer disc however it needs to.

If there is a need, someone will create the software to fill the void.

Even if 1 never happens, option 2 will allow us to succeed.

But given the quote below - It could go either way with DVDA2 (obviously, Sony will support it at some point, as it becomes more main-stream)

From dvd-burner.ca

Dual Layer Implications For DVD Recording Software

Sony,
Will DVDA 2 support DL?

Chris

JSWTS wrote on 5/5/2004, 5:36 PM

Option 1--maybe
Option 2--doubt it

Your post at the bottom sums it up. In the first paragraph, the burning software should be able to handle dual layers and media for recordable data--no argument here. That however, is not a playable dvd as far as video is concerned. The key statement in the second paragraph states that managing a breakpoint is difficult AND it is within the authoring app that it is ultimately accomplished. There are only a few apps in DVDA's price range that can accomplish this (Encore and DVDWS 2 on the PC and DVD Studio Pro on a Mac). I know there have been bugs with the initial releases of these apps (with the exception of Ulead's DVDWS, since I haven't heard of many creating dual layer discs) creating dual layer, playable discs. DVDA 2 in it's current version doesn't even support delayed subpicture appearance or playlists, it renders slideshows as a continuous video stream (wasting disc space) rather than "I" frames only, and it took over a year for a major upgrade. I would rather see some of these other things addressed than to worry about dual layer discs. Sounds good on paper, but I can tell you it's harder than you think to make playback seamless, or nearly seamless with DL.

Jim

Express wrote on 5/5/2004, 5:57 PM

Time will tell which of us is correct, it will be fun to revisit this in April 2005, 12 months after the drives became 'available'. :)
Perhaps even in 6 or 9 months...

But as you will see below, most of the consumer applications are jumping on the Dual Layer bandwagon already (in free download patches to existing software).
For Sony to ignore Dual Layer in DVDA2 would be very short-sighted.

If Sony fails us, I am betting that I will be able to buy software for < $99 within 12 months(likely to be much<$99) that can make my DVDA2 creations work on dual layer - and that this debate will seem trivial.
(that is, buy 3rd party software if necessary, because DVDA2 is not supporting it - but I really think that Sony will not let this one pass them by, since Sony is a principle in the DL initiative.).

[edit, 5/17/04]A likely scenerio is that the software to make DL from my DVDA2 projects will come for 'free' with my DL drive. [end edit]

Single layer DVD burners will become as insignificant as CD burners without underrun protection - I have 6 CD burners in machines around my home, one is lacking this feature. Still usable, but not preferable.
IMO, any vendor who does not support DL within 12-18 months will find themselves in trouble.

DL is more complex, but quite similar in nature to ability of the free DVDshrink software to take a dual layer disc, and stuff it on to a single layer disc.

It won't be all that big of an issue for me, because I will not buy a dual layer burner until there is a good software solution available - one that will allow me to use my Vegas/DVDA creations on DL (hopefully that will be just DVDA2)
I will also be waiting to see where Dual Layer -R is before I buy (it is behind +R, but not that far off)
At announcement, they are already much cheaper than I paid for my first burner, so the cost of the drive is already in line with what I'm willing to pay.

It will be fun to see how it all comes out.
I won't have any stress over it if I'm wrong - and no doubt the timing, pricing, and capability issues I have defined will not happen exactly in sync with my 'predictions'

but I can tell you it's harder than you think to make playback seamless, or nearly seamless with DL.

I certainly agree with you there - I have seen some awful DL glitches on comercial discs - regardless of the player.
The DL 'complexity' really has much to do with DLT mastering, and can be greatly simplified for DVD9.

I really think that this debate is a non-starter, and that DVDA2 will support dual layer in a future patch.

For those who do care about DL support, perhaps you should make a Product Suggestion

Added: According to emedialive.com Sonic says that DL support will be in ALL of their products in the near future - including a downloadable version of one of their low-end products I own - competition is good.
Pinnacle and Ulead product managers have stated that all of their products will sooner or later,support Dual layer. In general, the article indicates that DL will swallow single layer in the drive market, and the entire authoring industry will be there to support it.
But... They only mention Sony as a drive maker, with Nero. Vegas/DVDA is not mentioned!?

Roxio is providing a free dual layer patch download of their product.

[update 5/14/04]
Pinnacle has announced that they are testing their dual layer implementation, and will release on all their products as soon as it is ready.

[update 8/18/04]
Just installed an NEC 2510A as a USB external device - works great on SL material.
I have a VIDEO_TS directory that is 8.5GB.
Using Nero, I added the VIDEO_TS directory, and Nero simply requests that I insert a Dual Layer disc into the drive (which I'm waiting to buy) - looks like I can make a DL sized compilation with DVDA, and burn with Nero - this meets my requirements, just a bit (7 months) before NAB 2005).
Option 2 - available NOW.
Option 1 - (Burn with DVDA)- still not available - but who really cares?Certainly not me.
I use Nero to burn (and have for 3 years) all of my compilations anyway.

Chris