NAB REPORT: VEGAS VS. OTHER NLEs

bakerbud9 wrote on 4/21/2004, 9:09 PM
For all the complaining about Vegas 5 on this forum, what's it all about? Several people have insinuated Vegas 5 hasn't stepped up to the plate or has somehow failed to prove itself as a "professional" tool.

Ok, admittedly, I was dissapointend not to see nested timelines as a new feature. But I saw dozens of other NLE apps at NAB this year, and none of them held a candle to Vegas 5. Avid systems are stil selling for over $30,000 and they can't color correct and trim video clips without changing the "mode" of the application. Final Cut Pro users were shaking thier head in shame while watching the Vegas 5 demo at the Sony booth. Premiere Pro is still buggy and in bad need of the yet to be released 1.5 update.

In my opinion, the only other editing software on par with Vegas 5 was discreet fire* and smoke*. Note that discreet doesn't even differentiate between NLE and compositing apps anymore. They have completely integrated thier edit* NLE software into fire* and smoke* and have discontinuted edit* as an application that can be purchased seperately. This means you can't even buy a "pure" NLE application from discreet anymore. Instead, editing and compositing are all integrated into one unified environment for post production and finishing. I think this is a response to the increasingly blurred lines between editing and compositing for lots of media content creation.... especially television spots and music videos.

Vegas 5 was the only other application at NAB that was in this category. At the CineForm booth, I saw Vegas play 3 tracks of 1080p HD footage in realtime... with page curl transitions included. At the Sony booth, I saw Vegas play 25 tracks of composited DV footage in real-time (true 30fps). Try doing that in Final Cut or with an Avid.

These are clear demonstrations that Vegas can provide the performance and feature set otherwise available only on a $120,000 discreet system.

The only "consumer" or "prosumer" thing about Vegas is the price tag. Be thankful you have have the opportunity to get so much power for so little $$$.

-nate

Comments

Cheno wrote on 4/21/2004, 9:40 PM
Nate,

Thank you. After all of the unbelievably negative user posts on Vegas 5, it's refreshing to read your post. After 3 days on the floor I have to admit that Vegas schools so many other NLE's in so many ways. Complaints about the interface colors? Who cares.. change your theme. The buttons work the same. Lots of things still to come I'm sure, but what Sony has delivered is a stable app that does so much so well, I feel a lot are over looking the features of Vegas. Always the same people complaining... If you want Vegas to be Final Cut Pro.. move to Final Cut Pro.. if you want Vegas to be Premiere Pro.. etc.. I spent quite a bit of time in the Sony area today and believe me, they're listening to the users but they can't please everyone at every time. I'm grateful for the integration into the media world champ. I saw a workflow from the CineAlta to an HD Deck, downconverted into Vegas, offlined and then onlined into XPri for output to film. All with Sony gear. I don't think there is another company that can do that. Vegas definately ended up with the right company and they're moving forward as they see fit. They're not jumping the gun anywhere.

Sony gang... The booth was beautiful. You guys stole the show in my opinion. Thank you for a great time, great gathering on Monday and for taking care of your user base. There are some of us that appreciate what you're doing!

Mike
busterkeaton wrote on 4/21/2004, 9:48 PM
The other thing I love about Vegas, is that I had no second thoughts about moving my current projects into Vegas 5 and DVDA.

How many software users can say that? How many NLE users? Once again they have delivered a wonderfully stable app.
rmack350 wrote on 4/21/2004, 9:57 PM
I think users here are going to start seeing things they like and the tone of this forum will change.

Doesn't mean that there aren't workflow, media management, and usability issues. Just means there's a lot of really exciting stuff here under the surface.

Rob Mack
Grazie wrote on 4/21/2004, 10:52 PM
Oh yes! - Agreed .. . Haven't we got to a point of "managing expectations" - I see this as the risk of being successful AND with this Forum the "failure" of success having a very, very open and vociferous, outspoken user base. I see this as a good thing - may it always be so.

In this age of digital evolution it is hard and expensive to be technically competent. Dealing with "customers" can be a drain and brake on R&D. Not many companies would countenance the "feedback" voiced here. Historically it was Sonic Foundry - I raise my hat to them - now it is Sony. I bet our "new" owners must thank their lucky stars that they have such a superb set of users of their products making clear their experiences - this in itself is a major resource for any company BIG enough to make use of it and celebrate in their accomplishments. Please read some Tom Peters books on this one!

Vegas v Other NLEs? Well, maybe it is more about embracing The "Business-Culture" that suits a company AT a particular time. Has/is Sony doing this? As I am not "privee" to their business planning, I wouldn't know.

In my opinion, how a company intends to grow and prevail, is made "real" by the appearance of their products and services. To date, and over this past year, Sony has not disappointed this particular user.

Managing expectations IS the game . . one that we can all be part of.

My very best regards,

Graham "Grazie" Bernard

ps . . not my usual "stuff" here, but this is exactly the conversation I've been having with myself and others here in the UK. - Interesting . . .
B_JM wrote on 4/21/2004, 11:10 PM
a very good point about moving projects-- i went from one day to the next in the middle of a big job and switched from 4 to 5 and because it was vegas - i wasn't even worried about it and was doing final renders that night .. i would not dream of that in almost ANY other app - doing a major upgrade (not just a point release) in the middle of anything ..

the film surround mode is very cool -- though its missing the rear channels somehow! film surround now always is 7.1 (i am talking real film surround , not home dvd) ... to bad you can't make film surround default (or i have not found it yet) ..
HPV wrote on 4/21/2004, 11:24 PM
Nate, thanks for the NAB report. No dought Vegas is on the right track in the world of NLE programs. As for the 25 DV streams, I'm finding that kinda hard to believe. Was there 25 tracks on the timeline? What kind of computer setup?

Craig H.
bakerbud9 wrote on 4/22/2004, 2:14 AM
I kid you not. 25 separate tracks, each with a translate and scale so as to create a 5x5 moving video wall. The computer Duncan was demoing on had a Cerpico SAN array. Vegas was purrrrring on it...
-nate
bakerbud9 wrote on 4/22/2004, 2:15 AM
Duncan even adjusted opacity envelopes in realtime on one of the tracks just to prove to the audience that it was not a prerendered effect!
-nate
Rosebud wrote on 4/22/2004, 4:33 AM
bakerbud9 said:
At the CineForm booth, I saw Vegas play 3 tracks of 1080p HD footage in realtime... with page curl transitions included. At the Sony booth, I saw Vegas play 25 tracks of composited DV footage in real-time (true 30fps).

Hmmmmm… I love Vegas but I cannot believe that.
On PIV 3.06Ghz HT, I get 15fps for a single DV stream (PAL) with Color Corector filters (firewire preview, best full mode).
Try Canopus Edius 2.0 (ohci) and you will see what is real real time preview (true 25fps firewire preview, full DV quality).
JJKizak wrote on 4/22/2004, 5:43 AM
Me being in editing for the thrill of it, am still awed by V4 knowing about 40% of it. V-5 and DVD-A2 will undoubtedly kick my butt until my nose bleeds. I am thankfull that we have some very knowledgable and talented people creating and running this operation always going forward even though you can't please everybody. Some of the improvements are far above my flow of comprehension but I am slowly getting it. Old peoples brains (I am 63) are slower than a freight train at coffee break. Keep up the great work Sony and SOFO.

JJK
farss wrote on 4/22/2004, 6:04 AM
The first statement doesn't apply to Vegas 'out of the box' so I don't think we can comment on that. But the second statement is pretty out there.
So lets assume there's a way to make this happen, all I can say is given all the flack that's been around over preview performance over the last 12 months how about Sony let us in on thier little secret. I know when you don't rely on hardware assisted renders then specing a given performance against any hardware set is going to be a bit risky but this is such a staggering improvement in performance that I think most of us would be jumping over the moon if we bought whatever magic box could make that happen and only got 50% of that kind of performance.
cheroxy wrote on 4/22/2004, 6:26 AM
Grazie said, "with this Forum the "failure" of success having a very, very open and vociferous, outspoken user base. I see this as a good thing - may it always be so."

I whole heartedly agree. I feel that the majority of the complaints fall into two categories:
1-petty insignificant things like the new UI
2-lack of nested timelines (which sony has never said they don't want to work on)

So complaint two will probably be taken care of when Sony gets that code up to a stable, reliable position to add it into the program.
Concerning complaint one, this is due to "spoiled" users. Vegas has been over the top amazing in its growth over the past few years that they therefore expected a sudden quantum leap to an omnicient/omnipotent NLE.

I for one am very excited for my upgrade and love the capabilities we have in V5. The emotions that I feel for my FCP buddies have gone from humor at seeing them stuggle to actual pain watching how frustrating their projects can become. I have used vegas now for four years with up to 37 tracks and never had it crash once on me! That alone makes Vegas the amazing editor.
Cheroxy
Express wrote on 4/22/2004, 7:23 AM
I love Vegas!

I still have a lot to learn, and V5 DVDA2 will add quite a bit more.
I did not have DVDA1.

I was a long time Pinnacle Studio user, and I wanted to move up.

I narrowed my choice to Vegas 4 and Pinnacle Liquid Edition.

Because Pinnacle gave me a free Liquid Edition with the purchase of their 'Show Center' (media server), I went that route.

I was so disappointed!

I used the trial of Vegas 4 and the Liquid Edition, and carefully followed the tutorials in Edition - and then attempted to do the same things in Vegas.

I only needed to consult the Vegas documentation once (PIP - track motion).
I could never leave the Edtion manual (about 2.5 inches thick), each step was tedious.

(For a good laugh, compare Vegas' pan/crop with Edtion)

So, after two weeks I found a 'buyer' and dumped Edtion - and bought Vegas.
That was a very happy day!

Edition has an 'updated' interface, and it is no comparison to Vegas.

Thanks Sony!
vitamin_D wrote on 4/22/2004, 7:53 AM
I feel that the majority of the complaints fall into two categories:

You know, it's not that the UI gripes have been isolated to just the UI. At least, not from my corner. The gripe is that the UI seems to have come before core editing improvements, and that is what's so distressing about the 5.0a upgrade, because if this is the path Vegas is going down -- where bells-n-whistle-gee-whiz features take a more prominent place than basic editing needs -- well, if I wanted that I would have been a Jerry Jones a looooong time ago.

This kind of gripe extends out from something as simple as the UI, to a lot of other "features" that seem nice but not necessary. I don't consider minimal media management improvements "bells-n-whistles" -- they're essential to long form editing.

So you see, the two points you make are interrelated, and neither of them so easily dismissed.

To anyone who thinks it's just a matter of buying another NLE, forget it. If it were that simple -- if life operated in a vacuum where money, time and energy invested in an application didn't matter, I'd do it all the time (and I could, given how easy it is to obtain "free" software.)

For many of us the commitment and energy we've put into Vegas, the community of Vegas users, and the whole roster of SoFo/Sony products has been tremendous and, as customers, we deserve to have a say in the direction of the community just like everyone else.

Nevermind that -- and pay attention Billy -- I really, truly like Vegas. Some would say I like Vegas too much! Which is why I'm being critical -- I have a vested interest in its future and really want to see it shine.

Calling us crybabies is just a ridiculously petty cop-out (though not at all surprising given the way some of you have proven quick to stoop to that level in the past...)

- jim
Cheesehole wrote on 4/22/2004, 8:04 AM
> The gripe is that the UI seems to have come before core editing improvements

So the crux of your argument is based on the amount of resources Sony spent on the UI vs. core features.

vitamin_D, please tell us how much Sony spent on updating the interface icons (the ones that are so unprofessional). Then tell us how much Sony spent on improving responsiveness, realtime performance, and all the other core features. Because I honestly have no idea. Well I have some idea... I could create a set of new icons using Fireworks, but I don't think I could write the code for sub clips or custom keyboard mapping...

I think your argument will be much more persuasive if you put it all in perspective for us.
vitamin_D wrote on 4/22/2004, 8:51 AM
There's really no definite figure that exists that could demonstrate how much time Sony spent on UI design, but it's clear that -- as far as any of us know -- they spent zero amount of hours, minutes or seconds on the following:

More flexible media pool -- i.e. media arrangement/renaming

More comprehensive capture tools -- i.e. annotation and naming of media; arranging of media within the media pool heirarchy

True nested sequences

Whatever number of time segments you can guess they spent on the UI (or the 3d plane, the faux "nesting," and the comparatively limited introduction of subclips), that number dwarfs the zero spent on the above features. I would love to be proven wrong. I'd jump at the chance to upgrade if I were. I'd go back to "fighting the good fight" when approached by Avid/FCP/PPro evangelists...

...but I've yet to see it.

To be clear -- I love that they've added network rendering, and I love how it potentially -- at long last -- quiets the gripes others have had about the lack of "background rendering." I love all the work they've done on DVDA2 (and in fact think it's a more monumental release than Vegas 5). I'd enjoy playing with the other goodies, but would gladly do without many of them in exchange for better media management, because without better media management, network rendering becomes less of a selling point for users like me.

It's great that I can get HD onto and off of the timeline, and rendered to over a distributed network -- but if I cannot plug hundreds (and possibly thousands) of clips into a clear, efficient organizational architecture, access and log/annotate/track them clearly, the luster of network rendering quickly gets sullied. This is the lynchpin of higher-end, long form editing -- I can get around codecs, around compositing, and around titling lacks of Vegas with other tools -- so far as I know there's no helper app that lets me get around an innevitably disorganized media pool (and editing in small segments and then stitching them together is a workaround, not a feature.)

- jim
BrianStanding wrote on 4/22/2004, 9:03 AM
Anyone who has bolted from Adobe or Pinnacle can attest to how wonderful it is to have a new "point zero" release of software that simply works, right out of the box (or off the DSL line). That's worth more to me than almost anything else.

Anyone here remember Premiere 5.0, 5.1, 5.1a, 5.1b, 5.1c? Unlike SoFo/Sony, in Adobe's world, those letter updates weren't new or improved features, they were nothing but bug fixes. It took Adobe 5 times (and several years) to get it right, by which time Premiere was already out of date.
cheroxy wrote on 4/22/2004, 9:07 AM
Vitamin_D,
with my post I really wasn't refering to your type of comments. I agree that there are improvements to be made, and contructive critisism definately has its place. I do feel bad though that others have been posting strong negative comments on things like the UI, while completely ignoring the good updates.

I believe the best can be accomplished if the general feeling from the forums is positive (which V5 rightfully deserves) with insightful posts as to where we want vegas to go rather than the petty bitchin' and moanin' that some are doing. For example, red, over in the audio forum. A great guy, knows a lot, loves vegas and posts what improvements he would like, and what he doesn't like about V5. That is good. I think that will help keep the guys in Madison doing things like answering posts while at home, trying to include code that they don't have to but there is enough of a demand for.

BTW, the two things I wanted most in V5 were bezier masking and nested timelines. I can do a workaround quickly with nested timelines, but the masking/cropping I can't. So, I'm glad they chose that one if it came down to time to do only one, well.

later,
Cheroxy
Cheesehole wrote on 4/22/2004, 9:13 AM
>Anyone here remember Premiere 5.0, 5.1, 5.1a, 5.1b, 5.1c?

Hell yes. I have no idea how long Sony spends making their apps rock solid on almost any conceivable system, yet VitaminD invites us to compare the amount of resources spent on this vs. that and draw some kind of conclusion about the future. Those of us who wrestled with Premiere for years know how valuable a "core" feature like stability is.

I have a very complex system of scripts that interact with the timeline and I was able to update all of them and get them on the new scripting menu in just a few minutes. I'm already at the point where I don't have to open Vegas 4 for anything anymore.

THANK YOU SONY THIS IS THE SMOOTHEST VEGAS UPGRADE YET!
JonnyMac wrote on 4/22/2004, 9:17 AM
...as far as any of us know...

Exactly. You (we) don't know. As a programmer I believe that some of the changes you don't like are actually foundation improvements for later development. Sometimes this is necessary. And Sony developers have made it quite clear that the topic of nested sequences is under discussion -- but like anything, won't be added willy-nilly just because other vendors offer it. My requirements for Vegas are really simple, and what I like about it is that it's uncomplicated and doesn't crash every time I decide I need to use it. That stability comes from Sony's dedication to proper development; something I appreciate greatly.

There's a local technical club here in Dallas that lives by the motto: "It's harder than it looks."

Amen.
JJKizak wrote on 4/22/2004, 9:31 AM
Exactly. Who knows how many capture aps were being experimented
with or nested timeline scenarios oe edl lists etc. and the end result was unsatisfactory or unstable or international specs are about to be
changed yada yada yada. I liked the General Patton philosophy of getting the job done but waiting for programming improvements to the war effort would not have been in his cards.

JJK
vitamin_D wrote on 4/22/2004, 9:33 AM
Exactly. You (we) don't know.

Exactly -- back at you! :D

This is what half of my grumbling is about -- I know it's not "easy" to make changes to the UI (though, it has been a year...), I know SoFo/Sony has historically been responsive to our needs as customers (though, since SoFo has changed hands, this history is somewhat up in the air), but...

...what I don't know scares me. Hell, what little I do know, given what features showed up in Vegas 5 versus what didn't, scares me. This release has put some of my previously comforting assumptions about the future of Vegas in doubt. Two hundred bucks isn't the end of the world, but I'm not a gambler and don't intend to start now.

I'd be so happy if they'd just let the other foot drop and assure us that media management is on the way...

- jim
Nat wrote on 4/22/2004, 9:36 AM
I'm glad sony doesn't announce future features in advance.

Steinberg does this all the time and always fail to implement the features properly.

SHTUNOT wrote on 4/22/2004, 9:36 AM
Hey guys...

More flexible media pool -- i.e. media arrangement/renaming

More comprehensive capture tools -- i.e. annotation and naming of media; arranging of media within the media pool heirarchy

True nested sequences

In terms of the capture tools I thought that everybody was using scenalyzer for that. Why not support them and have all that done via third party. Complaining about that to me would be like myself complaining about sony not upgrading their audio plugins....sure they're good but nowhere near what you'd get third party.

For the issue of "More flexible media pool" and"True nested sequences" can't a script be made to accomodate some if not most of it???

How about putting a post together on info about all the ways/uses of said features...step by step!!!!!That way we could communicate with the scripting gurus and see what can be done.

Maybe stuff can be added so that by V5.0b/c???

Ed.